Water Chemistry!

[MyQul]

The GW one. Is that the one on jim's?

 

[clibit]

The GW one. Is that the one on jim's?

Yes. :thumb:

 

[clibit]

From the notes for the GW calculator:

Adding Your Water Treatment Stuff
If using CRS, this is always added to the total liquor before brewing. With the exception of calcium carbonate, which is always added to the mash in proportion to the amount of mash liquor, the best place to add the salts is generally to the total volume of the liquor. However, calcium sulphate can be difficult to get into solution in cold water, as is usually the case when using CRS. The other salts go into solution easily. There are two ways of overcoming the difficulty of getting calcium sulphate into solution. One is to premix it in a small volume of liquor using a food processor or a hand blender before adding it to the main liquor. The other is to split the calcium sulphate into two portions, one in proportion to the volume of mash liquor and the other for the remainder of the total liquor. The proportion for the mash is mixed in with the grist prior to mashing, and the remainder is added to the wort boil. This has the disadvantage that sparge water is untreated which, ideally, should be treated, although it probably doesn't matter too much if it is not. For this reason, premixing and adding the sulphate to the total liquor is preferred. Even if boiling the liquor to remove carbonate, it is a good idea to premix the sulphate before adding it to the liquor boil.

The calcium-bearing salts are required for mash reactions, so it is important that these are present in the mash in the correct proportions. The other common salts, magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride, are not particularly important for the mash, and they can be just as effectively added to the wort boil. In fact, for slightly technical reasons, it is probably better if the magnesium and sodium salts are added to the wort boil. Calcium carbonate should only be added to the mash. It should not be added to any other liquor including the sparge liquor. The carbonate is detrimental to brewing processes beyond the mash.

 

[mirsultankhan]

From the notes for the GW calculator:

Adding Your Water Treatment Stuff
If using CRS, this is always added to the total liquor before brewing. With the exception of calcium carbonate, which is always added to the mash in proportion to the amount of mash liquor, the best place to add the salts is generally to the total volume of the liquor. However, calcium sulphate can be difficult to get into solution in cold water, as is usually the case when using CRS. The other salts go into solution easily. There are two ways of overcoming the difficulty of getting calcium sulphate into solution. One is to premix it in a small volume of liquor using a food processor or a hand blender before adding it to the main liquor. The other is to split the calcium sulphate into two portions, one in proportion to the volume of mash liquor and the other for the remainder of the total liquor. The proportion for the mash is mixed in with the grist prior to mashing, and the remainder is added to the wort boil. This has the disadvantage that sparge water is untreated which, ideally, should be treated, although it probably doesn't matter too much if it is not. For this reason, premixing and adding the sulphate to the total liquor is preferred. Even if boiling the liquor to remove carbonate, it is a good idea to premix the sulphate before adding it to the liquor boil.

The calcium-bearing salts are required for mash reactions, so it is important that these are present in the mash in the correct proportions. The other common salts, magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride, are not particularly important for the mash, and they can be just as effectively added to the wort boil. In fact, for slightly technical reasons, it is probably better if the magnesium and sodium salts are added to the wort boil. Calcium carbonate should only be added to the mash. It should not be added to any other liquor including the sparge liquor. The carbonate is detrimental to brewing processes beyond the mash.

Wow that is amazing, i need to read it a few times in order to assimilate it.

calcium carbonate - mash only (in proportion to the mash volume)
calcium sulphate (pre mixed) - total volume
magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride - in the copper

thanks clibit, its precise and clear now

 

[mirsultankhan]

if this is the case then when using the GW calculator we need to enter three values in the volume to be treated box

1. for the mash volume (calcium carbonate) and take a note
2. for the total volume (calcium sulphate) and take a note
3 for the preboil volume (calcium chloride, magnesium)

this will certainly reduce things like chloride as we are only basing its inclusion on the pre biol volume.

on second thoughts i don't see how this would work because we end up getting different values for the overall levels in the finished beer.

 

[mirsultankhan]

ok this is getting crazy

Brewers fiend

Profile : MSK water profile
Target profile : London Porter, Dark ales
Total volume: 32 litres
Mash Volume: 12

Salt additions
Mash Only :
Chalk 9g, 2.5 tsp
Sparge water :
Gypsum 2.4g .5tsp
Table salt 1g .2tsp
Calcium chloride 2.4g .5tsp
Baking soda 2.4g .5tsp


Amount of acid needed to hit sparge water pH of 5.4: 4.00 g

 

[MyQul]

ok this is getting crazy

Brewers fiend

Profile : MSK water profile
Target profile : London Porter, Dark ales
Total volume: 32 litres
Mash Volume: 12

Salt additions
Mash Only :
Chalk 9g, 2.5 tsp
Sparge water :
Gypsum 2.4g .5tsp
Table salt 1g .2tsp
Calcium chloride 2.4g .5tsp
Baking soda 2.4g .5tsp


Amount of acid needed to hit sparge water pH of 5.4: 4.00 g

Think you've fallen down a deep dark rabbit hole there MSK. That's why I try to stick to alkalinity/PH adjustment alone :lol:

 

[mirsultankhan]

Think you've fallen down a deep dark rabbit hole there MSK. That's why I try to stick to alkalinity/PH adjustment alone :lol:

4g of citric acid would do it. the thing about this brewers fiend calculator is that it takes the acidity of the grain bill into consideration as well and gives you an estimated mash PH. I wonder if this attempting to create another water profile is not a bit artificial. I mean the chances of actually creating a London profile must be pretty slim

 

[MyQul]

4g of citric acid would do it. the thing about this brewers fiend calculator is that it takes the acidity of the grain bill into consideration as well and gives you an estimated mash PH. I wonder if this attempting to create another water profile is not a bit artificial. I mean the chances of actually creating a London profile must be pretty slim

Sounds all very (brewers) fiendishly complicated and way beyond where I want to take things. The way your going MSK, your going to be the forum water expert before long

 

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

At present what comes out of the tap has made very good beer for me.

 

[mirsultankhan]

Sounds all very (brewers) fiendishly complicated and way beyond where I want to take things. The way your going MSK, your going to be the forum water expert before long

'Its a wretched pupil that does not surpass his masters' - Leonardo da Vinci

I still have my reservations and think its really a bit artificial myself.

 

[mirsultankhan]

At present what comes out of the tap has made very good beer for me.

yes I am inclined to agree

 

[mirsultankhan]

Fry your minds

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ucJO_s7WiE[/ame]

 

[HisDudeness]

Hmmm this is probably going to send me down the rabbit hole also but been looking at my water report and trying it out with the old forum calculator and I have a question. The report gives a total hardness as calcium carbonate value and also an alkalinity value as calcium carbonate, these being different 330 and 228 respectively which one should I use in the calculator?

Now this is obviously very hard water and from what I can gather should have quite a negative impact on the beer, especially for paler varieties which I have done a few of now. Thing is personally I dont really notice many of the symptoms that are given as typical for alkaline water like this. For example I havent noticed any obvious harshness in resulting brews in fact most have been pretty smooth drinking, mashing efficiency has generally been decent getting 70-72% most of the time. The only things I could potentially link to the water are a slight lack of clarity and possibly not the most clean crisp finish on pale ales but these are pretty marginal and could be down to other factors as well. Is the difference from water treatment just very subtle or is something else going on? Or do I just have a **** beer tasting palate!

 

[MyQul]

Hmmm this is probably going to send me down the rabbit hole also but been looking at my water report and trying it out with the old forum calculator and I have a question. The report gives a total hardness as calcium carbonate value and also an alkalinity value as calcium carbonate, these being different 330 and 228 respectively which one should I use in the calculator?

Now this is obviously very hard water and from what I can gather should have quite a negative impact on the beer, especially for paler varieties which I have done a few of now. Thing is personally I dont really notice many of the symptoms that are given as typical for alkaline water like this. For example I havent noticed any obvious harshness in resulting brews in fact most have been pretty smooth drinking, mashing efficiency has generally been decent getting 70-72% most of the time. The only things I could potentially link to the water are a slight lack of clarity and possibly not the most clean crisp finish on pale ales but these are pretty marginal and could be down to other factors as well. Is the difference from water treatment just very subtle or is something else going on? Or do I just have a **** beer tasting palate!

You've probably noticed the 'if you havenot entered value so and so then enter value so and so under the carbonate and alkalinity value boxes i'd follow that but I'd be inclinded to go for the alkalinity value as calcium carbonate as you trying to find how much to adjust/recude the alkalinity by using CRS.

Tbh If I was you I'd be thinking, if it aint broke don't fix it, and not bother with water adjustment.

 

[HisDudeness]

Not going to bust out the chemistry set just yet just curious at the moment really, might get some CRS next time I order some ingredients though just to experiment with and see if it makes a noticeable difference

 

[mirsultankhan]

Isn't it strange you guys are trying to reduce the buffering effect of your water and we are trying to increase it for certain styles.

 

[mirsultankhan]

I have been thinking about this minefield for days and it appears to me that the simplest approach is to attempt to get our Mash to the correct PH all other things considered. How this is done is entirely dependent upon our water profile. I noticed that the Old calculator advocates adding two salts to the mash, chalk and gypsum, the brewers friend one advocates adding chalk and some kind of acid (lactic, citric) does it really matter which one we choose? I don't think so because they will both achieve the same.

The confusing part for me is that we have four different sources all advocating different things.

1. Graham Wheeler saying that nothing but Calcium carbonate (chalk) should be added to the Mash

2. The Old HBF calculator which advocates adding both carbonates (chalk) and sulphates (gypsum) to the Mash

3. The Brewersfiend which lets you add anything but advocates reducing PH with an acid.

4. The suppliers of chemicals like brupaks which suggest adding your salts directly to the Mash.

What is a poor noob to do? Personally I like the simplicity of the Old HBF calculator and i understand it much better than the others, it makes sense to use sulphate and carbonates together in the Mash to regulate the PH but I am suspicious of its other values.

The Brewersfiend ones are good and make sense but the simple one is too simplistic and the complicated one too complicated, even now I am not sure if some of the values rendered are based on total volume or volume for Mash and kettle separately. Plus it takes ages to try to make all the values balance.

I need more experimentation with the GW one and even here I am unsure if the values are based on total volume or Mash only. It seems rather unsatisfactory if its well known by brewers that certain salts are used exclusively for the mash and others for the sparge and kettle not to make the distinction in the software.

Perhaps there are even others that strike a balance like Beersmith or something like that, I dunno.

Now we could simply ignore this and make beer they way we have always made giving water profiles and mash PH absolutely no consideration or we could try to get a handle on it in the hope that it will impart some quality in our beers that may have been lacking, I dunno. At present I think some experimentation is needed with the software and to compare values.

I like the idea of reducing the PH of our water prior to mashing seems the simplest approach but of course PH is temperature dependent and this will change when we heat our water to mash temperature, by how much I don't know, but it would at least let us measure our PH prior to mashing helping us remain in the zone because I don't think that grains change the PH that much, not so much as it would knock us completely out the zone. Also any carbonate would be boiled out during the boil, would it not? Any thoughts would be appreciated - regards MSK

 

[mirsultankhan]

I think i have discovered the difference between the GW water calculator, the Old HBF calculator and the Brewersfiend one.

The former two are very similar and are aimed simply at reducing the mash PH and providing enough calcium in the boil, the brewersfeind one actually attempts to replicate the water of a particular place.

 

[MyQul]

Ha! I see you've sussed the 'easy option' and just concentrate on adjusting the alkalinity - which is what I do.

Don't much about the other calculator as I've not used them but if I'm reading you right and understanding things correctly I think you may have got a bit confused about what the old forum calc is telling you to use to adjust alkalinity. It's brupak CRS that you use not any other salts; although I think they lower the alkalinity (and therefore mash PH) incidently but the main factor is the CRS acid