Water Chemistry

[Hazelwood Brewery]

So, it seems odd that I, named as being a "befuddler", is liking a post actively criticising the complexity of "water calculators" and "water profilers"?

But, (believe it or not, and I get the impression the majority prefer to be in the "not" camp) I aim to get to a simple solution. The "Defuddler" has been arranged so the only interesting outputs can be clipped off within a few lines. It is intended to split off only what's useable from the volumes of junk associated with a water report. But I have to be completely transparent about what I'm doing, because there are hordes of people trying to ridicule what I'm doing. And that is why I'm often embroiled in complex reasoning.

And always remember the "Defuddler" is NOT a brewing water profile generator! It only trims the "un-required" from a water report ... and that includes any trace of "Hardness" nonsense (including "as CaCO3", etc.). And that's complicated ... for me not you!

I'm still having to learn (or remember!) things, like above coming across "silicates" and having to remember they are included with "Alkalinity" ... but I don't expect others to remember it, only my distractors (so they know I'm accounting for it, even if some have never had a clue why it needs accounted for in such a way). Not just distractors ... I'm also open to prompts from experts!

Calculated "Alkalinity" (as opposed to reading a dubious value off a sheet) is key to what I'm doing. It offers the possibility of adapting to day-to-day changes at a moment's whim ... the spreadsheet can already do that, but I need an easy way to get the necessary inputs for it. It (calculated alkalinity) is also dead easy and never "unbalanced". I'm bemused why brewers seem to have avoided calculating alkalinity ... is there a reason? It'll take a while convincing HBers it's okay.



And a brewing water profile builder. I am planning one! Built on the same lines as the Defuddler. No nonsense (or at least the nonsense hidden away so nutcases can find it if they want it). I have started on it! "RA" is the first casualty left in the gutter (it's bo11o***, but no criticism of Mr Kolbach, he never intended it to be used like HBers are using it). But getting a reliable mash "pH" prediction is a bit of a nightmare. May have to be something along the lines of >this< (that's simple!).

It’s easy to determine a fairly accurate reading of alkalinity using a simple test kit such as those from Salifert (ignore any reference to hardness on the packet! ).

I think Residual Alkalinity is a thing because chemistry explains how it works and gives you all the numbers to work it out. The question of what it means to us brewers and how it can be used are key.

I haven’t done any trials so I’m taking a lot of this on faith but the experts* tell us a negative RA pulls mash pH down and a positive RA pushes mash pH up from that achieved using distilled water. It might be that some of the tools trying to link this information to other concepts like beer colour don’t quite hit the mark because they conflate ideas?

* anyone that knows a lot more than me!

 

[peebee]

It’s easy to determine a fairly accurate reading of alkalinity using a simple test kit such as those from Salifert (ignore any reference to hardness on the packet! ). ...

It is as long as you've got plenty of alkalinity to measure. You can (I do!) measure small amounts of alkalinity (7-8mg/L "as CaCO3" for me aarg ... I just said "as CaCO3"; where's me soap to wash me mouth out!), but if I started to give instructions of how I do it with a Salfert kit (you can!), "easy" goes out the window!

... I think Residual Alkalinity is a thing because chemistry explains how it works and gives you all the numbers to work it out. The question of what it means to us brewers and how it can be used are key.

I haven’t done any trials so I’m taking a lot of this on faith but the experts* tell us a negative RA pulls mash pH down and a positive RA pushes mash pH up from that achieved using distilled water. It might be that some of the tools trying to link this information to other concepts like beer colour don’t quite hit the mark because they conflate ideas?

* anyone that knows a lot more than me!

"RA" is "a thing", but among brewing chemists, not generally. It's an attempt to put a figure on the impact of Calcium and Magnesium on the acidity of a brewing wort. As you know, I was getting quite taken by "RA" not so long ago, but doubts started to arise when I learnt Mr Kolbach's original work on "RA" covered a much wider scope (from mash-in to "knock-out" ... or "boil finished") and only covered a very simple beer recipe (a single malt mash). Attempts to repeat the experiments restricted to mash only, Calcium only (no Magnesium) and different malts (three!) was resulting in widely different conclusions.

And today, some "experts" are applying "RA" to every mash (without concern of what's in it), and for only the mash. I've given up on "RA" not because I doubt what it's covering, but because of what it's NOT covering! And don't even start on how to predict mash pH and beer colour from all that.

Doesn't that make you question where you put your faith? Do all "experts" "know a lot more than you"?


One particular well-known "expert" who puts all his faith in "RA": Well, that's fine when he preaches to "inconsequential" homebrewers, but he seems to preach the same stuff to commercial breweries: Wouldn't that be considered "professional misconduct" over here?

Here's a piece by "Silver is Money", a forumite on the "Brewer's Friend" forum: >Grab the RA targets from Recipe Editor to Water Calc<. It's difficult to read, perhaps his writing isn't concise ... or more like; your own brain refuses to assimilate what's being said!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

It is as long as you've got plenty of alkalinity to measure. You can (I do!) measure small amounts of alkalinity (7-8mg/L "as CaCO3" for me aarg ... I just said "as CaCO3"; where's me soap to wash me mouth out!), but if I started to give instructions of how I do it with a Salfert kit (you can!), "easy" goes out the window!


"RA" is "a thing", but among brewing chemists, not generally. It's an attempt to put a figure on the impact of Calcium and Magnesium on the acidity of a brewing wort. As you know, I was getting quite taken by "RA" not so long ago, but doubts started to arise when I learnt Mr Kolbach's original work on "RA" covered a much wider scope (from mash-in to "knock-out" ... or "boil finished") and only covered a very simple beer recipe (a single malt mash). Attempts to repeat the experiments restricted to mash only, Calcium only (no Magnesium) and different malts (three!) was resulting in widely different conclusions.

And today, some "experts" are applying "RA" to every mash (without concern of what's in it), and for only the mash. I've given up on "RA" not because I doubt what it's covering, but because of what it's NOT covering! And don't even start on how to predict mash pH and beer colour from all that.

Doesn't that make you question where you put your faith? Do all "experts" "know a lot more than you"?


One particular well-known "expert" who puts all his faith in "RA": Well, that's fine when he preaches to "inconsequential" homebrewers, but he seems to preach the same stuff to commercial breweries: Wouldn't that be considered "professional misconduct" over here?

Here's a piece by "Silver is Money", a forumite on the "Brewer's Friend" forum: >Grab the RA targets from Recipe Editor to Water Calc<. It's difficult to read, perhaps his writing isn't concise ... or more like; your own brain refuses to assimilate what's being said!

I find the Salifert kits easy to use anyway.

The piece by Silver is Money is good and I found it helpful. My takeaway is that RA is a thing and the Kolbach equation must be missing at least one variable (there may be more) that’s different in various malts.

From reading that book on water one major suspect for me is organic acids from Maillard reactions. The book also noted though that even different batches of the same grain differed and another book on malt might give us a clue why that might happen - natural variations of the bacteria on the husk of the grain producing acid. This is all just based on my assumptions and guesswork but it might show why determining RA is not practical.

It has been an interesting stroll through the weeds of RA and I do now feel able to challenge the RA experts (at least until they bamboozle me!).

* With apologies to @Hesmondgrolsh for hijacking this thread. My post #19 is more on target