HebridesRob
Landlord.
If she thinks that tell her to spend time in the Outer Hebrides. She'll find, without a doubt, it's the Calvinists that are the ruination of Scotland.
I have A level Chemistry. Just that I got it in 1978 haha!
Water Chemistry!
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If she thinks that tell her to spend time in the Outer Hebrides. She'll find, without a doubt, it's the Calvinists that are the ruination of Scotland.
I have A level Chemistry. Just that I got it in 1978 haha!
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
Haha! I have been to Uist, watched the porpoises follow the boats from Bara to Eriskay, was awesome. Ordered a whisky from a bar that looked across the water. Asked the man what it was. He said it was an Eriskay malt. I checked, there is no distillery on Eriskay, finest single malt whisky I ever tasted.
HebridesRob
Landlord.
Could have been a bottle left over from "Whisky Galore" :twisted:. Sometimes, the occasion just makes things taste better. Barra kind of proves my point about Calvinists, the population there is mostly Roman Catholic and they're far more relaxed.
rodabod
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Maybe he referred to it as a "risky malt".
mabrungard
Well-Known Member
I understand your concern with sodium and I don't advocate brewing pale beers with levels much higher than yours. However, sodium can be a very nice addition in darker beers. I've found that double or even triple the sodium that you have in your water is OK in porters and stouts. It does sweeten the beer...it does not make the beer salty. You have a nice tap water. Boosting alkalinity via baking soda should be OK with respect to flavor.
You can try out the effect by adding a touch of table salt to your glass of beer. Do try and figure out what that salt dose is before just tossing some in. You can easily create salty beer if you aren't careful with the dose!
mabrungard
Well-Known Member
By the way, there are plenty of Dublin neighborhoods that do have water quality similar to the above. Its just that the south side of the city where Guinness is, does not. The north and west portions of the city are saddled with that hard and alkaline water.
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Wardy
Junior Member
Lol, I'm originally from England but feel and act more Scottish. My chemistry is rusty but I suppose it's like riding a bike. I remember acid + alkaline = salt + water as a basic rule but it gets funky when you add catalysts and heat or cold. Trouble with the A level it was mostly reading books and proving you understood rather than actually doing practical stuff but that was down to cost. I'll have to see if I can dig out old notes because I remember a field trip to a water treatment plant for Yorkshire Water and the samples in their labs showing the amount of calcium carbonate. It's all coming back to me now because I had to write the formulas, what the reactions were when scum was formed in a soapy bath in Yorkshire but not Scotland.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
What are you trying to say here Wardy? Yorkshiremen are dirtier than Scotsmen? :lol:
Wardy
Junior Member
Haha, that's a key thing in my memory. I was at Barnsley sixth form college and before the field trip the teacher said "put your hand up if you get a clumpy scum on your bathwater" nobody put their hand up but she said "I can guarantee you all do and it doesn't mean you're very dirty and with the field trip today we will find out why".
I loved chemistry and physics :)
HebridesRob
Landlord.
Well, I will. Small risk I suppose.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
I am so glad you are here.
I have two question (really three) that I would really like to ask.
1. Do you advocate getting your water to a specific Ph, measuring it at room temperature, heating it and then mashing taking into account the Ph fluctuation in temperature created by heat? Do you treat separately the mash and sparge water?
2. Regarding the notes on the Bru'n Water site that you linked to under suggested mashing Ph targets (room temp) right at the bottom it states that for malt focused beers our PH should be 5.2-5.3 Is this a mistake because further up the column it states that darker coloured beers which tend to be malt focused should have a Ph of 5.4-5.6 Perhaps I am missing something or not understanding the data?
Many thanks for taking the time
mabrungard
Well-Known Member
Water pH is not really a concern in brewing. Its mash pH and water alkalinity that matters in brewing. You do want to measure pH at room temperature since high temperature will cause premature failure of your probe.
I do recommend treating your mashing and sparging water separately since their alkalinity requirements can be different. This fact is most prominent when brewing darker styles. In pale styles, you might find that the waters can be similarly treated. I find that its best to get into the habit of treating separately.
The reduced pH target for malty beers is not a mistake. The slightly lower pH helps smooth the hopping and allows the malt to come through more prominently. In fact German brewing practice is to mash around 5.4 and then acidify the kettle wort down to the 5.2 to 5.3 range prior to the boil. While dark colored beers might be malt focused, they are often roast-flavored. It is the slightly higher pH that helps smooth that roast flavor. By the way, a beer like a Schwartzbier probably wouldn't need to be brewed with an elevated pH since it is a malt focused beer with very restrained roast flavor.
I do recommend treating your mashing and sparging water separately since their alkalinity requirements can be different. This fact is most prominent when brewing darker styles. In pale styles, you might find that the waters can be similarly treated. I find that its best to get into the habit of treating separately.
The reduced pH target for malty beers is not a mistake. The slightly lower pH helps smooth the hopping and allows the malt to come through more prominently. In fact German brewing practice is to mash around 5.4 and then acidify the kettle wort down to the 5.2 to 5.3 range prior to the boil. While dark colored beers might be malt focused, they are often roast-flavored. It is the slightly higher pH that helps smooth that roast flavor. By the way, a beer like a Schwartzbier probably wouldn't need to be brewed with an elevated pH since it is a malt focused beer with very restrained roast flavor.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
I just thought that it might be practical to reduce your mash water Ph prior to mashing to say about 5.4 taking into consideration temperature change and likely grist effect and compensating accordingly otherwise how does one go about adjusting the ph once infusion takes place, there must be a very narrow window of opportunity especially since we must take a sample at roughly 66 Celsius and reduce it very quickly to room temperature to measure it.
Anyhow thankyou very much for taking the time its really appreciated. I am now trying to assimilate the idea that increasing hardness can actually reduce the residual alkalinity because prior to reading your notes one may have assumed that they were both one and the same thing, clearly they are not.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
After watching many videos and reading articles and blogs, l have come to the following conclusions regarding water chemistry.
1. One must work within the constraints and limitations of ones own water.
2. Carbonates are not good, get rid of them. It doesn't matter how, DI, reverse osmosis, boiling, just reduce them.
4. Mash Ph is important, try to get it to between 5.2 and 5.6.
5. Split the mash and sparge/kettle water and treat separately
6. Sulphur to Chloride ratio is important for emphasising certain qualities. As much as 3:1 in the case of Pale ales and 1:2 in the case of malty beers.
7. The real controversy comes in the actual amount of salts to add. For example some sources say that 0-250ppm of chloride is acceptable, others state that chloride should be kept under 100ppm for any beer.
8. It would be helpful if beer recipes included a water profile to aim for.
1. One must work within the constraints and limitations of ones own water.
2. Carbonates are not good, get rid of them. It doesn't matter how, DI, reverse osmosis, boiling, just reduce them.
4. Mash Ph is important, try to get it to between 5.2 and 5.6.
5. Split the mash and sparge/kettle water and treat separately
6. Sulphur to Chloride ratio is important for emphasising certain qualities. As much as 3:1 in the case of Pale ales and 1:2 in the case of malty beers.
7. The real controversy comes in the actual amount of salts to add. For example some sources say that 0-250ppm of chloride is acceptable, others state that chloride should be kept under 100ppm for any beer.
8. It would be helpful if beer recipes included a water profile to aim for.
Thanks Sultan. I think that's a really good guide. It doesn't appear to be an exact science, as advice varies so much. The sulphate:chloride ratio is something I'm now considering when i brew, the mash PH is something I may well start to measure, whereas the carbonates are not an issue for me with my very soft water.
mirsultankhan
Landlord.
Yes I agree there is ample room for experimentation. I think I will also try to effect something with the chloride sulphate ratio. I think the step above that is to attempt to precisely fine tune the mash and fine tune the sparge/kettle water to effect some desired result. Personal research is need on the final levels of salts but the good news is that the ratios of sulphate to chloride don't differ that extremely, its always weighted towards one or the other depending upon whether we are trying to emphasise bitterness or malt.
Personally I think taking notes is required. We should note our ratios and your overall ppm's probably starting with close to the minimal that one can get away with and gradually increasing to see what the effect is. It may even be an idea to mash and sparge and split the wort up and add the same salts in different quantities or ratios to the boil to see what the effect is. Its exciting times me thinks!
