Water Chemistry!

[Wardy]

I may as well start building gallows if that were to be done. Just for the month is all apart from the cigs. Got clibits sabbath fermenting away too. Xmas beer that one. Another one on the go soon.

I'm practicing for Christmas. Have to stop though, I'm working tomorrow.

 

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

I'm in work as we speak. Joy!!

 

[Twostage]

Can you post not zipped?

I could try but the attachment thing only has a limited set of allowed file types. I'll see what it says with an xls.

 

[Twostage]

That's very interesting the target water is almost exactly the same as my water. Where did you get the water profile from?

Got the postcode of the brewery and then looked up the water report for that postcode.

 

[Twostage]

I could try but the attachment thing only has a limited set of allowed file types. I'll see what it says with an xls.

Computer says "No".

 

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

No probs. Just on my phone is all a d can't open it.

 

[mabrungard]

I have been thinking about this minefield for days and it appears to me that the simplest approach is to attempt to get our Mash to the correct PH all other things considered. How this is done is entirely dependent upon our water profile. I noticed that the Old calculator advocates adding two salts to the mash, chalk and gypsum, the brewers friend one advocates adding chalk and some kind of acid (lactic, citric) does it really matter which one we choose? I don't think so because they will both achieve the same.

The confusing part for me is that we have four different sources all advocating different things.

1. Graham Wheeler saying that nothing but Calcium carbonate (chalk) should be added to the Mash

2. The Old HBF calculator which advocates adding both carbonates (chalk) and sulphates (gypsum) to the Mash

3. The Brewersfiend which lets you add anything but advocates reducing PH with an acid.

4. The suppliers of chemicals like brupaks which suggest adding your salts directly to the Mash.

What is a poor noob to do? Personally I like the simplicity of the Old HBF calculator and i understand it much better than the others, it makes sense to use sulphate and carbonates together in the Mash to regulate the PH but I am suspicious of its other values.

The Brewersfiend ones are good and make sense but the simple one is too simplistic and the complicated one too complicated, even now I am not sure if some of the values rendered are based on total volume or volume for Mash and kettle separately. Plus it takes ages to try to make all the values balance.

I need more experimentation with the GW one and even here I am unsure if the values are based on total volume or Mash only. It seems rather unsatisfactory if its well known by brewers that certain salts are used exclusively for the mash and others for the sparge and kettle not to make the distinction in the software.

Perhaps there are even others that strike a balance like Beersmith or something like that, I dunno.

Now we could simply ignore this and make beer they way we have always made giving water profiles and mash PH absolutely no consideration or we could try to get a handle on it in the hope that it will impart some quality in our beers that may have been lacking, I dunno. At present I think some experimentation is needed with the software and to compare values.

I like the idea of reducing the PH of our water prior to mashing seems the simplest approach but of course PH is temperature dependent and this will change when we heat our water to mash temperature, by how much I don't know, but it would at least let us measure our PH prior to mashing helping us remain in the zone because I don't think that grains change the PH that much, not so much as it would knock us completely out the zone. Also any carbonate would be boiled out during the boil, would it not? Any thoughts would be appreciated - regards MSK

I have a hard time believing that Graham Wheeler says to add only chalk to the mash. Any mineral can be added to the mash. However, chalk is not one of them due to the fact that chalk does not dissolve very quickly in the very weak acids that are present in the mash. Therefore, chalk has no place in brewing. If alkalinity is required in your mash to avoid an overly low pH, sodium bicarbonate is a very good choice. Don't worry about the sodium level since you are only adding a bit to only the mashing water.

An important followup on adding alkalinity, most brewing does not require alkalinity. Most brewing requires acid additions of some form. If an actual acid is used, there are options. Be aware that citric acid may not be ideal since its taste threshold is fairly low. Lactic acid has a higher threshold and phosphoric acid is fairly taste-free. CRS is a decent option excepting that it may add more chloride and sulfate than you want in your beer if your water has high alkalinity.

Since you have questions about brewing water and treatment, I suggest that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website. That will provide a short guide regarding the what and why. The Bru'n Water software provides a guide on the how. For mineral and acid additions, I strongly recommend adding them to the water and mixing them in thoroughly before adding any grain. That assures that they are well distributed.

With respect to the decision to treat or not treat your water...it really depends upon your tap water. Some water is pretty nice for brewing as-is and others are a train wreck. If your water falls in the train wreck realm, you should be more than ready since your beers probably don't taste that great. Just understand that a single water can't be suited to all brewing. If you want to brew all styles of beer, you will have to treat some of them.

 

[mirsultankhan]

I have a hard time believing that Graham Wheeler says to add only chalk to the mash. Any mineral can be added to the mash. However, chalk is not one of them due to the fact that chalk does not dissolve very quickly in the very weak acids that are present in the mash. Therefore, chalk has no place in brewing. If alkalinity is required in your mash to avoid an overly low pH, sodium bicarbonate is a very good choice. Don't worry about the sodium level since you are only adding a bit to only the mashing water.

An important follow up on adding alkalinity, most brewing does not require alkalinity. Most brewing requires acid additions of some form. If an actual acid is used, there are options. Be aware that citric acid may not be ideal since its taste threshold is fairly low. Lactic acid has a higher threshold and phosphoric acid is fairly taste-free. CRS is a decent option excepting that it may add more chloride and sulfate than you want in your beer if your water has high alkalinity.

Since you have questions about brewing water and treatment, I suggest that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website. That will provide a short guide regarding the what and why. The Bru'n Water software provides a guide on the how. For mineral and acid additions, I strongly recommend adding them to the water and mixing them in thoroughly before adding any grain. That assures that they are well distributed.

With respect to the decision to treat or not treat your water...it really depends upon your tap water. Some water is pretty nice for brewing as-is and others are a train wreck. If your water falls in the train wreck realm, you should be more than ready since your beers probably don't taste that great. Just understand that a single water can't be suited to all brewing. If you want to brew all styles of beer, you will have to treat some of them.

here are his words.

The calcium-bearing salts are required for mash reactions, so it is important that these are present in the mash in the correct proportions. The other common salts, magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride, are not particularly important for the mash, and they can be just as effectively added to the wort boil. In fact, for slightly technical reasons, it is probably better if the magnesium and sodium salts are added to the wort boil. Calcium carbonate should only be added to the mash. It should not be added to any other liquor including the sparge liquor. The carbonate is detrimental to brewing processes beyond the mash.

I think you may be correct and I have interpreted his words incorrectly. He states that salts should be added to the Mash but that calcium carbonate should be exclusively added to the Mash. I interpreted this to mean that it was the only salt added to the mash, now i can see that its erroneous.

My water is soft because it comes from the Carron reservoir high in the Campsie hills, 1000ft above sea level. it presents No problems for pale and light beers but has not enough alkalinity for darker beers.

Many tanks for the advice i was unaware of the taste that certain acids have and I will check out the links.

I must mention that i have access to gallons and gallons of DI water because i use it in my business which is not connected with brewing

 

[HebridesRob]

Calcium Carbonate will dissolve in fizzy water.

 

[HebridesRob]

here are his words.

The calcium-bearing salts are required for mash reactions, so it is important that these are present in the mash in the correct proportions. The other common salts, magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride, are not particularly important for the mash, and they can be just as effectively added to the wort boil. In fact, for slightly technical reasons, it is probably better if the magnesium and sodium salts are added to the wort boil. Calcium carbonate should only be added to the mash. It should not be added to any other liquor including the sparge liquor. The carbonate is detrimental to brewing processes beyond the mash.

I think you mat be correct and I have interpreted his words incorrectly. He states that salts should be added to the Mash but that calcium carbonate should be exclusively added to the Mash. I interpreted this to mean that it was the only salt added to the mash, now i can see that its erroneous.

My water is soft because it comes from the Carron reservoir high in the Campsie hills, 1000ft above sea level. it presents No problems for pale and light beers but has not enough alkalinity for darker beers.

Many tanks for the advice i was unaware of the taste that certain acids have and I will check out the links.

Sparge water needs decent acidity to prevent leeching tannins from grain husks. This is where acid might be useful.
Adding sulphates to your water might help with hop favours in an ipa or similar, or there might already be enough.

 

[mabrungard]

Calcium Carbonate will dissolve in fizzy water.

Correct! However the rate at which it dissolves means that it will be hours for it to dissolve and contribute its alkalinity. A mash is not that long and therefore, chalk is not suited for mashing water treatment.

 

[mabrungard]

My water is soft because it comes from the Carron reservoir high in the Campsie hills, 1000ft above sea level. it presents No problems for pale and light beers but has not enough alkalinity for darker beers.

Your water sounds like the water that Guinness uses in Dublin. The water out of the Wicklow Mountains has very low mineralization. Similar to RO water. They now supplement their water supply with a RO system.

 

[HebridesRob]

Correct! However the rate at which it dissolves means that it will be hours for it to dissolve and contribute its alkalinity. A mash is not that long and therefore, chalk is not suited for mashing water treatment.

In order to build brewing water with temporary hardness (alkalinity and calcium hardness), chalk (CaCO3) is needed. Chalk, however, is not very soluble in water and most of what is added remains suspended or settles to the bottom. This article describes how chalk can be dissolved if so desired.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

 

[mabrungard]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

Yep, it works. I've tried it. However, its still a foolish effort for the typical brewer. Using a fully water-soluble alkaline salt is a better option for brewing. Both slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate are readily soluble in water and are far better options than chalk.

 

[Wardy]

Your water sounds like the water that Guinness uses in Dublin. The water out of the Wicklow Mountains has very low mineralization. Similar to RO water. They now supplement their water supply with a RO system.

Yep, I didn't realise we were in the same area. I make stout and it tastes great. Admittedly it's a modified Coopers kit but I looked into it for AG and no adjustment needed.

 

[HebridesRob]

Yep, it works. I've tried it. However, its still a foolish effort for the typical brewer. Using a fully water-soluble alkaline salt is a better option for brewing. Both slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate are readily soluble in water and are far better options than chalk.

My water analysis, mean results past 12 months from Scottish water site. (mg/L):
Calcium = 1.7; Magnesium = 2; Sulphate = 19.9; Bicarbonate = 15.3, Sodium = 32.1, Chloride = 32.5.

I don't particularly want to add more sodium.

Actually, if I add chalk I just plonk it straight into the mash. The calculators kind of account for the fact it doesn't dissolve. I will do the dissolving trick if I make something I really want to be special.

 

[mirsultankhan]

Yep, it works. I've tried it. However, its still a foolish effort for the typical brewer. Using a fully water-soluble alkaline salt is a better option for brewing. Both slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate are readily soluble in water and are far better options than chalk.

I am steadily working my way through the notes from the website link that you provided. It is utterly fascinating to be honest. I printed them off. I like the idea that you can adjust the Mash Ph to suit a particular style, perhaps this is why different temperatures are used to create different styles as the temperature directly influences ph.

 

[mirsultankhan]

Your water sounds like the water that Guinness uses in Dublin. The water out of the Wicklow Mountains has very low mineralization. Similar to RO water. They now supplement their water supply with a RO system.

See this is exactly the problem, if you go to any site and request a Dublin water profile for a Stout style recipe you get a profile with tons of calcium carbonate in it and all the while Guinness are getting their water from a natural reservoir hidden far in the hills and using reverse osmosis into the bargain!!!. Look at this one here lifted at random

Calcium (ppm):

120​

Sulfates (ppm):

54​

Magnesium (ppm):

4​

Sodium (ppm):

12​

Chloride (ppm):

19​

Carbonates (ppm):

319​

for me to achieve this same profile I would need to shovel calcium carbonate into my mash tun, my water has barely 10ppm Calcium carbonate. This approach of trying to meet a specific water profile that differs greatly from ones own appears to me to be purely idealistic and ignores the practicalities and limitations of what one can achieve with ones own water.

 

[mirsultankhan]

It's been interesting following this. I have A level chemistry but never had the need to adjust the water because of doing kits. I'll be starting AG in the new year so it will be good to look back on this thread as I too have very soft water.
Hope your missus isn't too harsh on you, I've been bad today with 3 bottles of stout and now on 2nd bottle of red wine and total cost �£2.10. HB is ace

nah the lady is alright but has a wicked Calvinistic streak running through her body - 'whisky and dancing its the ruination of Scotland!!! (even though shes from India, weird eh ) A-level chemistry you say and just up the A80, a very handy man to know!

 

[mirsultankhan]

I have a hard time believing that Graham Wheeler says to add only chalk to the mash. Any mineral can be added to the mash. However, chalk is not one of them due to the fact that chalk does not dissolve very quickly in the very weak acids that are present in the mash. Therefore, chalk has no place in brewing. If alkalinity is required in your mash to avoid an overly low pH, sodium bicarbonate is a very good choice. Don't worry about the sodium level since you are only adding a bit to only the mashing water.

An important followup on adding alkalinity, most brewing does not require alkalinity. Most brewing requires acid additions of some form. If an actual acid is used, there are options. Be aware that citric acid may not be ideal since its taste threshold is fairly low. Lactic acid has a higher threshold and phosphoric acid is fairly taste-free. CRS is a decent option excepting that it may add more chloride and sulfate than you want in your beer if your water has high alkalinity.

Since you have questions about brewing water and treatment, I suggest that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website. That will provide a short guide regarding the what and why. The Bru'n Water software provides a guide on the how. For mineral and acid additions, I strongly recommend adding them to the water and mixing them in thoroughly before adding any grain. That assures that they are well distributed.

With respect to the decision to treat or not treat your water...it really depends upon your tap water. Some water is pretty nice for brewing as-is and others are a train wreck. If your water falls in the train wreck realm, you should be more than ready since your beers probably don't taste that great. Just understand that a single water can't be suited to all brewing. If you want to brew all styles of beer, you will have to treat some of them.

the site is wonderful, truly excellent.