Electric cars.

[Rodcx500z]

Why the need to try and put a downer on somebody's excitement enjoy your new car @Nicks90, I for 1 don't mind admitting that I have a hint of jealousy

Who is putting a downer on someone's excitement, so because i posted about what is going on you interpret that as a downer, i am sure Nick will get many many years of enjoyment out of his new car i know i would, enjoy the rest of your day

 

[Nicks90]

Why the need to try and put a downer on somebody's excitement enjoy your new car @Nicks90, I for 1 don't mind admitting that I have a hint of jealousy

it bothers me not one bit - you should see the posts over on pistonheads, Hilarious!
the best one is about battery longevity, its running to about 2000 posts now with people coming out with the line that as the batteries only have a 100k mile and 8 year warranty, therefore they must be junk after that with battery degredation. But when you counter with ICE engines have 3 years and 60k miles warranty and does that mean all engines go bang after that, they get all uppity and say its totally different
haters will hate.

its been proven time and again that they emit lower emissions over their lifespan (massively so when you factor in renewable electricity) and as a burgeoning industry there are more after market companies re-using the batteries for storage walls and other uses, they are generally more reliable than ICE cars, quieter to drive, usually much faster and have a much greater safety record for accidents (plenty of data from the US showing that - a big insurance company in the US compared 9 models of car that have both electric and ICE drive-trains and examined the collision, damage and injury data for these cars between 2011 – 2019. The research found that injury claims for EV drivers and passengers were 40% lower than for the exact same ICE cars during the analysis period. This adds considerable weight to the argument that EVs are much safer to drive than ICE cars due to the additional safety tech that comes as standard)

 

[Rodcx500z]

So it's not about fires it's about battery damage, if a battery is unusable because it is bamaged in a crash why is it any different to and engine that is unusable because it is severely damages due to many car manufacturers boltimg the suspension to it?
I don't see why a car should be written off just because the battery is bamaged why can't they replace it with a good one?



And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a “circular economy.”

There is a massive difference between a suspension arm and a battery pack like 15,000 to over 20,000 pounds, and nobody knows if the pack is damaged so they write it off, all because of a lack of data which the maker won't release for what ever reasons

 

[gavp1979]

Who is putting a downer on someone's excitement, so because i posted about what is going on you interpret that as a downer, i am sure Nick will get many many years of enjoyment out of his new car i know i would, enjoy the rest of your day

It was the fact that you started with "Don't get excited just yet" within 10 minutes of a picture of his new car, if I have misinterpreted that then I apologise but if you read it back the context can appear to be in bad taste. Enjoy your day, I am trying to work while they dig up the pavement right outside my house so I hope yours is more peaceful than mine

 

[Rodcx500z]

It was the fact that you started with "Don't get excited just yet" within 10 minutes of a picture of his new car, if I have misinterpreted that then I apologise but if you read it back the context can appear to be in bad taste. Enjoy your day, I am trying to work while they dig up the pavement right outside my house so I hope yours is more peaceful than mine

I meant no harm, i had just finished reading the article it was bad timing on my part which i realised straight after posting it

 

[Chippy_Tea]

There is a massive difference between a suspension arm and a battery pack like 15,000 to over 20,000 pounds, and nobody knows if the pack is damaged so they write it off, all because of a lack of data which the maker won't release for what ever reasons

You are right but you have misunderstood what I meant, take the BMW mini the suspension is bolted to the engine in an accident the engine casing will break and as the engine is still going at the time of the accident it's goodbye engine, they are not the only manufacturers doing this.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

all because of a lack of data which the maker won't release for what ever reasons

I am not sure what you mean by this and it's the second time you have mentioned it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It was the fact that you started with "Don't get excited just yet" within 10 minutes of a picture of his new car, if I have misinterpreted that then I apologise

I read it the same way it does come over as someone anti EV posting negative stuff but as Rod has said he is not anti EV.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

its been proven time and again that they emit lower emissions over their lifespan (massively so when you factor in renewable electricity) a

And to add many people confuse the term “emissions” and think only of CO2.
There’s so many other poisonous fumes and chemicals etc coming out of the exhaust of an ICE for the duration of its life

 

[Nicks90]

I am not sure what you mean by this and it's the second time you have mentioned it.

Rodcx500z said:
all because of a lack of data which the maker won't release for what ever reasons

I am not sure either, as the majority of Intellectual Property in the battery packs is down to battery management and is software based. The construction of batteries is pretty standard. Lots of cells strung together in series to make blocks and blocks strung together in parallel to make the pack at the right voltage and ampage. The dimensions of the pack are for fitment to the car and may or may not be a stressed member or part of the chassis. But the contents of the packs are all pretty much standard. There are about 4 different battery tech thats used commercially and can be found in everything from EVs, to laptop and phone batteries. And none of it is 'secret', as anyone can buy an example car and pull it open with a tin opener to have a look. They arent mission impossible packs and self destruct in 5 seconds if someone without the right badge on his labcoat looks at it.

Now if you think back 5 years, there were very few EVs on the road and therefore only a very small number have ended up at scrapyards. So they didnt know what to do with them, AND there were very few companies that could remanufacture the packs or repurpose them. Then add on to that the life expectancy of EVs being way more than the naysayers thought - its going to be a few more years before volume goes in to the scrap supply chain that will make business sense to recycle the packs viable.
eg tesla sales:
2017 = 50,000
2022 = 536,000
most of those 50k early teslas are still quite happily pottering about, and probably will do for another 5-10 years. Its only in another 15 years will we start see any real numbers of teslas getting cut up and by then it will be a big business recycling several hundred thousand battery packs a year in to wall chargers, mega storage crates for solar farms etc

 

[Bernie]

Don't get to exited just yet Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car

I haven't exited just yet.
Another bit of misinformation comes to mind in that article; if EV repair costs are high because batteries will need to be scrapped higher insurance costs will also fall on ICE vehicle drivers, since their insurances will have to pay up if they are in the wrong.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

 

[Rodcx500z]

I read it the same way it does come over as someone anti EV posting negative stuff but as Rod has said he is not anti EV.

As Chippy says i am not anti ev, it's just so confusing to me, green this and that, then you read it makes so much co2 gas producing it and the range is rubbish in cold weather, on a brighter note the misses and i have a dizzy scooter it never gets used, we bought it for a good price just in case we might need one, i upgraded the battery to lithium range is 18 miles it is hooked up to a trickle charger to keep the battery in good health i take it for a spin now and then it is quite nippy and has all round suspension

 

[Nicks90]

As Chippy says i am not anti ev, it's just so confusing to me, green this and that, then you read it makes so much co2 gas producing it and the range is rubbish in cold weather, on a brighter note the misses and i have a dizzy scooter it never gets used, we bought it for a good price just in case we might need one, i upgraded the battery to lithium range is 18 miles it is hooked up to a trickle charger to keep the battery in good health i take it for a spin now and then it is quite nippy and has all round suspension

You are of course right, they do need more CO2 emissions to build them. But running them is much better.
for example:
In the UK at the moment were emitting 180g/CO2 per kw/h to produce electricity.
Teslay Y does approx 3 miles per kw/h
Therefore 60gm CO2 per mile.

Petrol emits 2.6kg CO2 per litre burnt.
If your car averages 45mpg., thats roughly 10 miles per litre. (based on a Golf 1.2 petrol)
Therefore 260gm CO2 per mile

The average lifespan of a car in the UK is 12 years and 150,000 miles

150,000 miles in a Tesla = 9,000Kg CO2 emitted
150,000 miles in a petrol car = 39,000Kg CO2 emitted

So the million dollar question is, does a Tesla or other EV take 30 tonnes of CO2 more to make than a conventional petrol car? If not, then its a net gain.
And the other million dollar question is, how much will the CO2 per Kw/h go down over the coming years as more green energy comes online in the UK. It will go down, but how much depends on the government. So that gap between life emissions of an EV and petrol car will only get bigger over time. I hope it will get much much much bigger, but even if it doesnt, its still a huge saving over the life of the car just in terms of emissions.

Then there are ancillary emissions. 150,000 miles will require 10 engine services. thats a lot of used engine oil consumed and disposed of. And then there are particulate emissions, which are virtually nill with gas fired power stations and zero with renewable energy. Even petrol cars emit fine particulates, diesels are much worse. And of course those emissions are emitted locally where you are driving and not at source.

As for range, well i wont comment on that as i havent even run a full battery worth on my car yet! But according to honestjohn and others realistically i should expect 220 miles. I havent done a journey that long is yonks and if i do, there are millions of super chargers i can stop at whilst i go for my 'old man wee' at the halfway point!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

E fuel in the news this morning meaning we won't all have to use an EV, not much detail about it this morning.

 

[Bernie]

E fuel in the news this morning meaning we won't all have to use an EV, not much detail about it this morning.

German car makers using their muscle to swing legislation their way.
Will E-diesel be used on the tractors and lorries to produce the E-diesel?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

German car makers using their muscle to swing legislation their way.
Will E-diesel be used on the tractors and lorries to produce the E-diesel?

Well, Porsche and Ferrari look like they have swung an exemption for e-fuel-only cars in the ban on ICE cars from 2035...in the EU. But that doesn't affect the UK directly. Although the way things are going for car manufacturing in the UK since Brexit (2022 was the fewest cars we've made since 1956) we will probably end up doing whatever Brussels decides.

But e-fuels are only going to be a small part of the market for cars, in the same way that hydrogen won't be a big thing for cars or home heating (today's big announcement effectively admits that the future is heat pumps) as there's only going to be a finite amount available and just as hydrogen will mostly go to the chemical industry, e-fuels will mostly go to aviation, as they have fewer alternatives available so will outbid domestic users. So e-fuels and hydrogen will be a bit like heating your home with LPG - more expensive, and only for those who don't have access to the "mainstream" option of electric cars and heat pumps.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Looks like this fuel is not going to be the saviour of the internal combustion engine for car driver.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well, Porsche and Ferrari look like they have swung an exemption for e-fuel-only cars in the ban on ICE cars from 2035...in the EU. But that doesn't affect the UK directly. Although the way things are going for car manufacturing in the UK since Brexit (2022 was the fewest cars we've made since 1956) we will probably end up doing whatever Brussels decides.

But e-fuels are only going to be a small part of the market for cars, in the same way that hydrogen won't be a big thing for cars or home heating (today's big announcement effectively admits that the future is heat pumps) as there's only going to be a finite amount available and just as hydrogen will mostly go to the chemical industry, e-fuels will mostly go to aviation, as they have fewer alternatives available so will outbid domestic users. So e-fuels and hydrogen will be a bit like heating your home with LPG - more expensive, and only for those who don't have access to the "mainstream" option of electric cars and heat pumps.

Think the stat about low car manufacture in 2022 has everything to do with closing down the planet through covid and general global car demand trends rather than Brexit. Even the mighty German car industry has been in decline since 2016 with 2021 being the lowest number of cars manufactured by German manufacturers since 1975.

Ultimately you cant blame big companies for innovating to solve the issues they face. They're not going to sit back and do nothing and just cease to exist. It's these big global technology companies that will deliver the technologies that we need and not the Teslas of the world. Tesla once was the only game in town with nearly 100% of the EV market, they're now around 20% or so of the market now the big global companies have come to the parties and leveraged the full weight of their super efficient and intricate global supply chain, technology development and understanding of what is really important to car owners...and any Tesla owner will know what that means.

And I think the German government were pleased Porche has come to the party with an alternate saving them an embarrassing political u-turn as the penny has finally dropped that the purely politically derived need zero by 2050 is impossible to achieve. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more governments softening their stances and backtracking over the next few years.

 

[Bernie]

There's an interesting series of articles about the EV transition on the IEEE website
https://spectrum.ieee.org/ev-transition-explained-ebook#toggle-gdprI don't know if it has already been cited here.