Electric cars.

[Nicks90]

It's a case of "if this and if that then maybe...", relying on technology we don't yet have. And if we did, would that not mean a massive upgrade of the National Grid, with all of the environmental implications?

Progress is made by If and But.
Look at startrek. Touch screen interfaces, hand held smart communications, wireless headphone receivers, scanners, etcetcetc
For all his faults, Elon musk said 'what if' for main stream EVs at a time they were not possible. Now we have loads.
Some chap at CERN said 'wouldnt this be cool' and invented the internet.
Or the college kids that thought it would be a good idea to capture the sun's rays and make electricity.

None of this was possible until someone said it would be cool if.....

And you can bet your bottom dollar that all the big oil companies are spending BIG on next gen ev tech, as a replacement to monetise their transition from oil revenue.

As for national grid, that has been covered in a previous post about what would happen if we all went ev.

 

[Scrattajack]

As for national grid, that has been covered in a previous post about what would happen if we all went ev.

Don't think it took into account the amount of power it would take to charge a car in a few minutes and then have car after car "filling up" on the forecourts in succession as they do now for fossil fuels.

I take your point about progress but there is uncertainty involved. Even if it's technically possible the timescale and costs are unknown. In my youth, the comics 'predicted' the foreseeable future would bring mobile phones but also jet-packs and personal aeroplanes.

 

[Stu's Brews]

Don't think it took into account the amount of power it would take to charge a car in a few minutes and then have car after car "filling up" on the forecourts in succession as they do now for fossil fuels.

'Fast charging' of that type will only occur in very specific use cases (e.g. long motorway trips). The vast majority of charging will continue to be done whilst the vehicle isn't in use (e.g. parked at home or at the office) which will be done at a slower rate.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

would that not mean a massive upgrade of the National Grid, with all of the environmental implications?

A massive upgrade will not be necessary as it states below "no need for new electricity-generation capacity in the near future" more supply will be brought in as it is required, solar panels have to be installed on new houses here and have been for a few years i imagine that will eventually go country wide if it isn't already meaning more of us will be able to charge at home free of charge and we wont have to rely on the grid.

ELECTRIC VEHICLE GRID IMPACT​

Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption.

So far, the market entry of EVs has been very predictable and the electric grid is constantly being developed in parallel. Current EV market trends show low to moderate energy uptake rates.

The projected growth in e-mobility will not drive an immediate or substantial increase in total electrical-grid power demand, according to a study by McKinsey & Company. This means EV’s aren’t likely to cause any abrupt surprises or disruptions in our power supply and there is no need for new electricity-generation capacity in the near future.

If we take Germany as an example, EV growth won’t cause any large increases in power demand through 2030. On the contrary, EVs could add 1% to the total and require about five extra gigawatts (GW) of generation capacity. That amount could grow to roughly 4% by 2050, which would only require an additional capacity of about 20 GW. Moreover, this new-build capacity will likely involve renewables, including wind and solar power, with some gas-powered generation.

At the same time, electric vehicles are 5 to 6 times more energy-efficient than the best internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicle. In passenger cars, EVs consume 25% the amount of energy in comparison to ICE vehicles. E-trucks consume about 50% of their diesel equivalents’ own energy consumption.

This means that when a majority of the vehicles on our streets are electric, the total amount of energy consumed in transport is significantly less than what it is now. And electric vehicles only continue to get more efficient and green.

 

[Polcho]

I hope the facts are correct

 

[Brew_DD2]

I hope the facts are correct

That's generally the nature of a fact, as opposed to opinion. Unfortunately, both seem to be given equal weight nowadays.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Good luck to our EU chums charging their EVs:

https://euroweeklynews.com/2021/10/...warns-of-possible-power-outage-across-europe/

 

[Bernie]

Good luck to our EU chums charging their EVs:

https://euroweeklynews.com/2021/10/...warns-of-possible-power-outage-across-europe/

that article was published on 27 October 2021.

 

[Cwrw666]

Our next car will probably be an EV. We don't do big distances anymore and I like the possibility of self generation.
Having said that I hope someone in the MOD is looking at Russia's tactics in Ukraine where they're deliberately knocking out the electric system. If all transport were electric that would be the end of that.

 

[Rodcx500z]

?, how do you charge an electric tank in battle :tinhat:

 

[dad_of_jon]

?, how do you charge an electric tank in battle :tinhat:

you're thinking of tron perhaps?

 

[Stan's Brew]

that article was published on 27 October 2021.

Yes indeed, take heed EV drivers, from the last para:

"According to national media, it is not the first time that the Austrian army has got a prediction right. In 2017 they spoke of a possible pandemic that would paralyse the world in the next decade, something that ended up coming true, as reported by 20minutos.es."

 

[Stu's Brews]

Yes indeed, take heed EV drivers, from the last para:

"According to national media, it is not the first time that the Austrian army has got a prediction right. In 2017 they spoke of a possible pandemic that would paralyse the world in the next decade, something that ended up coming true, as reported by 20minutos.es."

Stan - the article you posted is over a year old, about a completely different country and at best has a tenuous link to electric vehicles. Now you are trying to suggest the Austrian army has some sort of psychic powers? It's complete nonsense that adds no meaningful value to the debate.

 

[Bernie]

Our next car will probably be an EV. We don't do big distances anymore and I like the possibility of self generation.
Having said that I hope someone in the MOD is looking at Russia's tactics in Ukraine where they're deliberately knocking out the electric system. If all transport were electric that would be the end of that.

Possibly, although petrol pumps are electric as are traffic lights, road lights, car workshops, home lighting, central heating, heavy industry as a whole, Grainfathers, fridges. EVs would be the least of our worries.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Stan - the article you posted is over a year old, about a completely different country and at best has a tenuous link to electric vehicles. Now you are trying to suggest the Austrian army has some sort of psychic powers? It's complete nonsense that adds no meaningful value to the debate.

This is a global forum - EVs are a global phenomenon? Why do you think the debate is restricted to just the UK?

How are blackouts tenuously linked to EVs? Do they not run on electricity the majority of which are charged from the grid?

A quick google shows lots of mainstream articles debating national blackouts and local controls over smart meter restrictions and other matters related to restricting the ability to charge an EV.

Why are you trying to dismiss the article as meaningless with no value? It appears to me to have a risk level to EV owners that is not fully understood, what is your assessment?

 

[Stan's Brew]

Possibly, although petrol pumps are electric as are traffic lights, road lights, car workshops, home lighting, central heating, heavy industry as a whole, Grainfathers, fridges. EVs would be the least of our worries.

The MoD has done their assessment, decades ago, only critical national infrastructure civilians will get access to energy in dire circumstances.

We will need to revert to wood fire to get a brew on

Similar happened in the pandemic when movement restrictions were in force, you needed an authorised letter (or an ID card) to drive to work if you were required to attend a workplace.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Yes indeed, take heed EV drivers, from the last para:

"According to national media, it is not the first time that the Austrian army has got a prediction right. In 2017 they spoke of a possible pandemic that would paralyse the world in the next decade, something that ended up coming true, as reported by 20minutos.es."

Naustriadamus

 

[Stu's Brews]

This is a global forum - EVs are a global phenomenon? Why do you think the debate is restricted to just the UK?

How are blackouts tenuously linked to EVs? Do they not run on electricity the majority of which are charged from the grid?

A quick google shows lots of mainstream articles debating national blackouts and local controls over smart meter restrictions and other matters related to restricting the ability to charge an EV.

Why are you trying to dismiss the article as meaningless with no value? It appears to me to have a risk level to EV owners that is not fully understood, what is your assessment?

It's tenuous and adds no value because the article doesn't mention electric vehicles at any point and so far has proven to not be true.

You're also ignoring the fact that you don't need to permanently charge electric vehicles. They retain charge in exactly the same way as you retain petrol in a tank. So unless the blackouts are exceptionally long it wouldn't be an issue for the majority of vehicles.

Additionally blackouts would also prevent you filling up a petrol or diesel vehicle as the pumps wouldn't operate (amongst a whole host of other issues as @Bernie highlights) so it's completely wrong to suggest this is a downside of electric vehicles specifically.

It's already been discussed at least twice in this thread that EVs will not have a significant impact on grid capacity. @Chippy_Tea's post a bit further up the page provides the details.

 

[Stan's Brew]

It's tenuous and adds no value because the article doesn't mention electric vehicles at any point and so far has proven to not be true.

So we wait for it to happen for it to be proven to be true? I recall UK blackouts in the 70's - so it is true on this basis.

You're also ignoring the fact that you don't need to permanently charge electric vehicles. They retain charge in exactly the same way as you retain petrol in a tank. So unless the blackouts are exceptionally long it wouldn't be an issue for the majority of vehicles.

I seem to be ignoring many things, would you like to list ALL the things related to this debate that I am ignoring?

My father's BMW i3 will lose 25-30% of its range in sub zero weather (from around 130 miles down to 90 miles), so that is a factor. The i3 is a Hybrid though so could run indefinitely on petrol if required, albeit it with much limited range between petrol fills, but for his use case it won't matter if we have extended blackouts as he is retired and elderly and doesn't need to drive anywhere far with urgency (unless it's the hospital). So he can sit on his battery charge (assuming he knew a blackout was coming and he remembered to plug-in to the charger to top it up).

Pure electric EVs are stuck with an in-built battery storage only with no chance of backup, does that mean that the most advanced and expensive EV available has a range of 300-400 miles in warm weather or 200-300 in Winter, I'm not sure as I haven't researched? Not many people can afford an EV outright, never mind a 50-100KWh battery bank extended range backup needed to charge off-grid.

What happens to battery range as it ages? 80% after 10 years? Where are we at with the technology at the moment?

Additionally blackouts would also prevent you filling up a petrol or diesel vehicle as the pumps wouldn't operate (amongst a whole host of other issues as @Bernie highlights) so it's completely wrong to suggest this is a downside of electric vehicles specifically.

I said it's a risk, not a downside, you are writing words into my responses. I view a risk as something to be assessed and mitigated against if necessary, hence I have 50 litres of diesel stored for each vehicle I own giving me a range of around 1000 miles per vehicle (starting with a full tank as well). Beyond this would mean we are in real trouble and I am unable to mitigate against further risk.

I suspect we will be in total chaos at this stage anyway, so if you haven't escaped to your yacht already, then just down all remaining homebrew stocks and kiss your ass goodbye.

It's already been discussed at least twice in this thread that EVs will not have a significant impact on grid capacity. @Chippy_Tea's post a bit further up the page provides the details.

I'm unable to comment on the impact on the grid - yet I am sceptical of the marketing hype of media and governments and car salesmen who will paint a rosy picture of just about everything they impose, it's "all for our benefit and there are no downsides to even consider (or debate)."

"But look here's a bunch of stats that we've paid someone to produce that proves us right" - yeah right, that's worked well for every prediction of government bodies so far hasn't it

 

[Stu's Brews]

I am sceptical of the marketing hype of media and governments and car salesmen who will paint a rosy picture of just about everything they impose, it's "all for our benefit and there are no downsides to even consider (or debate)."

"But look here's a bunch of stats that we've paid someone to produce that proves us right" - yeah right, that's worked well for every prediction of government bodies so far hasn't it

That's an awful lot of doom and gloom about something that the evidence suggests is unlikely to happen.

Have you considered that the articles saying things along the lines of 'blackouts will leave EVs stranded' and 'EVs will cause blackouts' are also propaganda by people who don't want to upset the status quo? There are an awful lot of people who gain by a slower adoption of electric vehicles.

Your last sentence also rather contradicts your original post. You wont believe government predictions that EVs are a viable future transport option that could have environmental benefits but will believe the Austrian Defence Ministry's prediction blackouts will occur. Is that the faint whiff of confirmation bias?