Electric cars.

[Rodcx500z]

Any reputable manufacturer will have a corporate responsibility

You mean like the water companys who are dumping thousands of ton of raw sewage in our rivers and coastline, Lithium company's are no different, in my view digging big holes in the planet to meet a target just doesn't make sense. This a never ending argument so i will leave it there

 

[Stu's Brews]

You mean like the water companys who are dumping thousands of ton of raw sewage in our rivers and coastline, Lithium company's are no different, in my view digging big holes in the planet to meet a target just doesn't make sense. This a never ending argument so i will leave it there

A final thought on my part as I'm quite happy to end the discussion here (today is my birthday and I'd rather not spend the whole of it locked in an argument on an internet forum).

How is mining for lithium worse than the current status quo? We've seen massive damage to our environment over the past 100 or so years. Carrying on doing the same things simply won't help. Electric vehicles may not be the final answer but they are surely at least a step in the right direction.

 

[Rodcx500z]

(today is my birthday

No problem, i wish you a very happy birthday have a wonderful time

 

[Bernie]

Ev's are just part of the agenda to meet the green targets for 2030, in the mean time children are being exploited working in lithium mines, Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries need any more evidence ev's are not green, i for one could not live with myself knowing children were used to provide my transport, South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars, if you need more evidence just ask

Some corrections. The lithium mines that an "investigative" journalist reported were were in fact for cobalt ores. Cobalt is used in lithium ion batteries as the insertion electrode. That is a questionable report as most cobalt comes as a side product of nickel production and the quantities obtained by asking children to bring up a few baskets just below the surface is minimal (about 10% comes from artisanal mines) and unreliable. Journalists should stop reporting like this with photos taken out of the context of reality to present it as the whole picture. A more serious problem could be found with cancer rates in nickel mines but this involves adults and digging with heavy machinery and wouldn't have gained traction.
How "ethical" is the production of the nickel found in the stainless steel of your brewing equipment?

 

[Rodcx500z]

At the end of the day ev's are not green never have been and never will be, yeah it's nice having a green square on your number plate so the neighbours can see how green you are it's a bit like having a top end beemer on the drive, are the diggers electric or diesel, it's amazing how many people fall for the speel governments pump out, are we the people helping to save the planet or are we lining billionrs pockets while they search for the real thing, mother nature will take her coarse and the next extinction will be humans caused by greed and stupidity

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Just what you need after a hard day at work, not

Well that's put me right off getting an EV its a good job cars with engines never catch fire!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

in the mean time children are being exploited working in lithium mines,

Funny how children have been exploited for years in other areas but they only get a mention when EV hater try to make their point!

 

[Rodcx500z]

Funny how children have been exploited for years in other areas but they only get a mention when EV hater try to make their point!

Who is a ev hater, and yes children have been exploited all over the world for years, i am no ev hater Chippy i just happen to think it's the wrong way to go, so please don't class me as a hater

 

[Rodcx500z]

At least in an ice fire you have some time to free your self, could you have got off that bus

 

[Chippy_Tea]

At least in an ice fire you have some time to free your self, could you have got off that bus

I haven't a clue, would you have got off this diesel version?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Who is a ev hater, and yes children have been exploited all over the world for years, i am no ev hater Chippy i just happen to think it's the wrong way to go, so please don't class me as a hater

Well you have used many of the arguments haters use in debates like this it was difficult to tell you don't hate battery powered vehicles.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I have an EV but can see the argument re how green they really are. Not sure the mining of the materials needed to create the batteries is a valid one since the steel to make the petrol or diesel engines needs to be mined too. People also tend to forget the new oil needed to lubricate an ICE and disposal of the old, the extra dust from brake pads due to the lack of regenerative braking etc. But until 100% of the electricity used to power the EVs comes from renewables, we are simply shifting the emissions from an exhaust pipe to a power station somewhere.

 

[Rodcx500z]

So because i have a different point of view, that makes me a hater, what a twisted world we live in, so a vw id3 produces 2 tonnes more than a golf before it even gets on the road,

An analysis by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) revealed that a combustion-engined car like a Volkswagen Golf causes around 7.2 tonnes of carbon emissions during its production process. In comparison, a similar-sized EV, such as a Volkswagen ID.3, causes around 9.2 tonnes. As a result, the ICCT calculated that the EV in the UK would have to drive an extra 7061 miles to catch up with the Golf – the equivalent of about a year of driving. If by your logic this makes me a hater so be it

 

[Brew_DD2]

So because i have a different point of view, that makes me a hater, what a twisted world we live in, so a vw id3 produces 2 tonnes more than a golf before it even gets on the road,

An analysis by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) revealed that a combustion-engined car like a Volkswagen Golf causes around 7.2 tonnes of carbon emissions during its production process. In comparison, a similar-sized EV, such as a Volkswagen ID.3, causes around 9.2 tonnes. As a result, the ICCT calculated that the EV in the UK would have to drive an extra 7061 miles to catch up with the Golf – the equivalent of about a year of driving. If by your logic this makes me a hater so be it

And then when it's on the road...

I'll save everyone the effort. Also from the ICCT. It's easy to cherry pick figures, but it's also disingenuous.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

And then when it's on the road...
I'll save everyone the effort. Also from the ICCT. It's easy to cherry pick figures, but it's also disingenuous.

To add to DD2's brilliant post -

An EV will run on 100% green energy, if you already have solar you are getting free travel.

EV batteries are not dead when the EV can no longer use them due the them not holding enough charge they have many other uses so rather than scrap the car you can exchange the battery, this is not cheap at the moment but prices will come down as EV's become more popular, i doubt many owners go the the expense of replacing their petrol engine when the car has done 150,000+ miles and its not performing as it used to.

An EV has far less service parts so not only is it cheaper to service there are a lot less parts going to landfill, no dirty engine oil and filter every 12 months, no coolant changers, brakes last many times longer in an EV due to regenerative braking, no lead battery that have a life expectancy of 4 - 5 years etc.

 

[Nicks90]

At the end of the day using an EV is more efficient. The electric motor is 90+% efficient and the electricity from either a power station or renewables is also very high in efficiency. End to end the whole system is about 4 times as efficient compared to any petrol or diesel engine. You can cut it how you like, but the facts speak for themselves.
Whilst it might not be perfect, anything that improves efficiency - and where possible uses renewable energy - is a benefit to the environment.

Is it perfect? no
Is it the end game? probably for average Joe ( * )
Is it what we need for goods/transportation? No, that will be hydrogen made from renewable energy. However until they crack the efficiency issue, its 3 times less efficient to produce and run a hydrogen powered vehicle than an EV

( * ) when we finally crack fusion reactors - electricity will be essentially 100% green and we wont need any fossil fuels to charge batteries. Add the leaps in battery tech and charging tech, I would imagine 95% of people will easily manage with an EV. Next big leap in battery tech is capacitors i reckon. The ability to charge one almost instantly given the right power source, you could charge your EV at a "Petrol station" in a couple of minutes. No wall chargers, no issues with on street parking being a barrier to EVs, no range anxiety etc

 

[GazzaW57]

If the charging situation doesn't change my next car will be a hybrid, Toyota seem to have nailed this and their hybrids can do 60 - 100 mpg with no need to plug in, not ideal but the only option for those with no means to charge at home.

I’m also unable to purchase an electric car, due to the lack of on street charging facilities where I live. I opted instead for the Toyota CHR 2.0 hybrid and regularly get 55mpg or more, with figures in the 70s often achieved and I don’t always spare the horses.

If the charging situation ever changes in my neighbourhood, I’ll gladly consider an electric vehicle, but until then, I’ll stay with my hybrid.

 

[Scrattajack]

The ability to charge one almost instantly given the right power source, you could charge your EV at a "Petrol station" in a couple of minutes.

It's a case of "if this and if that then maybe...", relying on technology we don't yet have. And if we did, would that not mean a massive upgrade of the National Grid, with all of the environmental implications?

 

[dad_of_jon]

Not going to argue that any form of child or forced labour is anything other than completely unacceptable. However, that's a very different definition of 'green' than what was being discussed around the environmental impact. That's why it is such a frustrating turn of phrase as it is woefully vague and can be far too easily thrown into the debate by either side without real meaning.

On the specifics of where materials are sourced; it is a known problem within the industry, although sadly not limited to battery materials nor (as you highlight) the automotive industry. Any reputable manufacturer will have a corporate responsibility and materials compliance program to ensure all materials are from legal and ethical sources. It is something that we take very seriously at my company as it is absolutely not something we can ever condone. As of 2021, new EU regulations were introduced specifically to target this problem.

Regarding your second link about lithium-ion battery production, again it is a known problem in the industry and there are huge efforts in place to improve the situation. As this article highlights, the overall environmental impact of an electric vehicle (even accounting for the battery production) is still less than a petrol or diesel equivalent. Additionally, lithium-ion batteries may be replaced altogether in the not too distant future as better battery technologies become available, another area we are actively exploring.

Unfortunately a lot of the negative press around electric vehicles is fuelled by a resistance to change (both socially and economically). Peel back the layers and you often find the arguments against electric vehicles aren't particularly strong when considering the bigger picture. That's of course not to say that those in favour of electric vehicles don't play the same game. Any article worth reading should consider both electric and petrol/diesel vehicles rather than selectively bashing/lauding one or the other.

agreed - I worked with someone who was anti-American. - Ok just to let you know I said - that Microsoft and Apple are both American so without them a lot of us would be out of a job. you could make a tenuous case for going linux I'suppose. I suspect it was a dig against Apple of whom I am not a fan boi. However, for American and Chinese dislikers there is an inconvenient truth that needs to be addressed. Same with EV's vs ICE cars really.

 

[dad_of_jon]

And then when it's on the road...

I'll save everyone the effort. Also from the ICCT. It's easy to cherry pick figures, but it's also disingenuous.



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Moral of story - pack up and go to live in France. - ask @An Ankoù if he has any recommendations