All my AG brews are pants...

[Ajhutch]

I think I'm following you, except 39/58 is 67%. But don't think about it like that. Your efficiency is comparing your OG with what the calculator has been programmed to consider perfect efficiency for your given grain bill. Your planned efficiency was an assumption that is needed to plan a recipe.

How did you determine you had 58% efficiency? Did you use the Brewers Friend calculator, where you put your grain bill in along with your volume and gravity?


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[_jon_]

:lol: :lol: :lol :lol:

14 litres into 4.5 litres!! You must have boiled it for a month? haha Good work

I can't switch from what I'm doing now, because I've failed... which means I can't quit until I succeed! It's just the way I am lol. Not only will I succeed, I WILL make perfect beer. :)

 

[AdeDunn]

:lol: :lol: :lol :lol:

14 litres into 4.5 litres!! You must have boiled it for a month? haha Good work

I can't switch from what I'm doing now, because I've failed... which means I can't quit until I succeed! It's just the way I am lol. Not only will I succeed, I WILL make perfect beer. :)

Nope, just 90 minutes bud. The last brew I made in my 33 litre SS stock pot before I switched to using an ACE mash tun boiler. I had that much head space though, and the volume was small enough to actually get a proper boil, that I quite literally boiled it's brains out....:whistle:

I did my first AG in the same pot and undershot (1.040, instead of 1.045 post boil) OG, had to top it up with some DME, and only got 63% efficiency... Drinking a bottle of that one now though, and despite low efficiency, it's ruddy lovely buddy! So yeah, keep on at it. :thumb:

 

[Sadfield]

I asked that question earlier, but I think it may have been missed as there's been a lot of action on the thread.

I batch sparge, and in the past after the hour mash I recirculate with the pump for about 5 mins, and then I pump into the boil kettle at full thrust! Then I batch sparge, and run the pump again at full thrust (after recirculating). This time, I actually ran the pump at half speed on the sparge, but still I sparged about 18 litres of water in about 3 minutes.

I did ask earlier, should I sparge at a trickle to make sure I rinse the grains better?

Firstly, how long is the batch sparge? As in, how long is the contact time between the grain and sparge water?

Secondly the process should be.

1) Mash.
2) Recirculate (vorlauf) until the wort is clear.
3) Drain.
4) Batch Sparge. Add water, stir up grain then leave for at least 10 minutes to pull sugars from the grain.
5) Recirculate (vorlauf) until the wort is clear.
6) Drain.

At this point you could do a second batch sparge. As a guide, either by batch or fly sparging, on a non recirculating system the sparge should take 40 minutes minimum. The purpose of the recirculation is to use the grain bed as a filter so only clear wort goes to the kettle.

As for pump speed, there is an argument that pulling wort from the grain too quickly can have negative effects. My setup is all gravity, so I can't give any input on that.


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[strange-steve]

I know from experience that efficiency problems can be very frustrating, but the great thing about brewing on a small scale is that poor efficiency doesn't actually cost you much. For example, a 20L 1.050 batch at 58% efficiency will require about 1kg extra of grain compared to 70% efficiency. Sounds a lot but you can get pale malt for less than �£1/kg, so an extra 2.5p per bottle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "leave it as is". Take the suggestions here on board and hopefully things will begin to improve, but don't take it too hard if your efficiency is poor in the meantime.

A couple of suggestions from me:

Firstly, check your conversion efficiency, that is how much of the sugars have been extracted from the grain. This lets you know if the problem is mash related or somewhere further down the line. Braukaiser talks about how to measure it here, just scroll down the page a little and you'll find it.

Secondly, work out what your pre-boil gravity should be, then take a measurement. If you're under add some DME to bring it up. This won't tell you why it's low obviously, but at least the beer will turn out as it should. This may be helpful for the next few brews while you work out some of the kinks. Fwiw my first AG had an efficiency of 55% :-?

 

[_jon_]

How did you determine you had 58% efficiency? Did you use the Brewers Friend calculator, where you put your grain bill in along with your volume and gravity?

Exactly as you say. I used to tool to calculate based on the grain, and then typed in what I actually got.

 

[_jon_]

Firstly, how long is the batch sparge? As in, how long is the contact time between the grain and sparge water?

Secondly the process should be.

1) Mash.
2) Recirculate (vorlauf) until the wort is clear.
3) Drain.
4) Batch Sparge. Add water, stir up grain then leave for at least 10 minutes to pull sugars from the grain.
5) Recirculate (vorlauf) until the wort is clear.
6) Drain.

At this point you could do a second batch sparge. As a guide, either by batch or fly sparging, on a non recirculating system the sparge should take 40 minutes minimum. The purpose of the recirculation is to use the grain bed as a filter so only clear wort goes to the kettle.

As for pump speed, there is an argument that pulling wort from the grain too quickly can have negative effects. My setup is all gravity, so I can't give any input on that.


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I've been leaving the batch sparge water on the grains for as long as it takes to recirculate. So maybe 2 minutes. Maybe I should be leaving it longer, and as you say.. set the pump to a trickle rather than sucking the water out on full thrust. I will try it and update. I'm brewing again tomorrow.

 

[Ajhutch]

Exactly as you say. I used to tool to calculate based on the grain, and then typed in what I actually got.

Ok cool.

Well my advice would be on your brew tomorrow, slow down your sparge. Sadfield has given you good guidance on how long it should take, I do no sparge BIAB so have nothing to add to his view. This should mean you get a better rinse of the grains and so better efficiency. See where you are after that, and try to improve one thing each time you brew.


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[_jon_]

I know from experience that efficiency problems can be very frustrating, but the great thing about brewing on a small scale is that poor efficiency doesn't actually cost you much. For example, a 20L 1.050 batch at 58% efficiency will require about 1kg extra of grain compared to 70% efficiency. Sounds a lot but you can get pale malt for less than �£1/kg, so an extra 5p per bottle.

This is an interesting way of putting it. While it's not the overall answer (as I'd like to get a higher efficiency, but I can bear this in mind for the next few brews.

Firstly, check your conversion efficiency, that is how much of the sugars have been extracted from the grain. This lets you know if the problem is mash related or somewhere further down the line. Braukaiser talks about how to measure it here, just scroll down the page a little and you'll find it.

Very interesting page, I'm going to read it through. I think it'll help greatly.

Secondly, work out what your pre-boil gravity should be, then take a measurement. If you're under add some DME to bring it up. This won't tell you why it's low obviously, but at least the beer will turn out as it should. This may be helpful for the next few brews while you work out some of the kinks. Fwiw my first AG had an efficiency of 55% :-?

It may well say on that page and forgive me if it does, but how do I work out my pre boil gravity? Is there a BF calculator for that?

 

[strange-steve]

It may well say on that page and forgive me if it does, but how do I work out my pre boil gravity? Is there a BF calculator for that?

Yes there is here. Use the "Finds new gravity" calculator like so:
Wort volume = expected post-boil volume (volume into fermenter plus what's left in the kettle)
Current gravity = expected OG or °P
Target volume = pre-boil volume

Then it'll tell you what the pre-boil gravity should be.

Edit to add: Or you can very easily work it out yourself:
Original gravity in plato / pre-boil volume × post-boil volume = Pre-boil gravity

 

[Gunge]

As a guide, either by batch or fly sparging, on a non recirculating system the sparge should take 40 minutes minimum. The purpose of the recirculation is to use the grain bed as a filter so only clear wort goes to the kettle.

Yes! My sparge takes around an hour. I've had some beer and can't even contemplate accurately working out the flow rate, but it's slow - very slow, less than half a litre per minute. I've never had any doubts abouts extraction rates...

 

[BeerCat]

I use that calc all the time when i am brewing to see if i need to boil anything extra off.

Yes there is here. Use the "Finds new gravity" calculator like so:
Wort volume = expected post-boil volume (volume into fermenter plus what's left in the kettle)
Current gravity = expected OG or °P
Target volume = pre-boil volume

Then it'll tell you what the pre-boil gravity should be.

Edit to add: Or you can very easily work it out yourself:
Original gravity in plato / pre-boil volume × post-boil volume = Pre-boil gravity

 

[GerritT]

<> As I mentioned I've ended up with 21 Litres at 1.039. My recipe aimed for 1.058. So again, MILES off. Recipe says it'll end at about 1.015. If it gets to 1.015 it'll be at 3.15%, which is pretty poor for an IPA.

I had a comparable situation. Aiming for a 6% IPA, ended up around 4%. Lost way too much wort in in the leaf hops (Target).
So the taste balance malt//alcohol//hops was waaay too much hop, according to recipe.

But it turned out very drinkable, even after only a month conditioning.
One of my failed brews, but not undrinkable at all. Doing something wrong doesn't mean it's a screw-up.

 

[AdeDunn]

You might want to test your pre boil SG with a hydrometer as well but, as well as with the refractometer.

I bought a brewing refractometer to make testing pre ferment easier. Used it twice. The 2nd time I took a belt and braces approach and compared to a hydrometer reading, only to find that there was a HUGE difference in reading between the 2. The sample was bang on 20 degrees, which is the temp my hydrometer is calibrated at, so odd are the hydrometer was way out. It got relegated to a draw as I can't trust it. Not least as when you come to take your FG to calculate ABV it'll be with a hydrometer anyway (refractometers become inaccurate when there's alcohol in the sample), so if your refractometer isn't reading the same as your hydrometer your ABV calculation will be wrong.

So yeah, check your refractometer is accurate. Cheap ones often aren't, even after you calibrate the ATC with distilled water.

 

[_jon_]

Okay, so brewday two has begun.

Honestly, I can say that it's so much easier with a Gerritbrewed AG Kit. There are no instructions with the kit, and very loose instructions online.. but that suits me as I want to brew it like I normally would brew my own, but using their ingredients pre measured.

Right off the bat, the grain looks MUCH finer than the grain I've been using from Amazon. So I already have a feeling that's going to make a difference.

I've mashed in at 66.7c (the recipe asked for 66c) so I'm pretty happy with that. My mash PH is 5.19, which I think is pretty much right on the money. This is no doubt of course thanks to the water treatment they included in the pack. I didn't weigh anything it just said, dump what we've given you into the strike water. I'm impressed but I'd love to know how to calculate that for my brews, because whatever the quantities were, they were spot on. The additions were calcium chloride and calcium sulphate. One powder, one crystal. (Goes without saying I've ordered a tub of both).

Mash is resting now, and I'm heating the sparge water.

I have a GOOD feeling about this brew and thanks to this forum and all of your help, I think I'm finally starting to understand what I'm doing.

EDIT: If I open my eyes, I'd see that the quantities of water treatment is written right there.. 13g Calcium Sulphate & 7g Calcium Chloride.

EDIT AGAIN: I just wanted to say that although my PH above looks low, I did run it through the temperature correction calculator and at the temp I measured it at, the calculator says is actually 5.4135. Which I think is right on the number really.. I've been watching an interview with John Palmer where he talks about brewing water, and it's right in the ball park.

 

[AdeDunn]

Glad to hear it's going better.

I'd lay odds though that it's the malt giving you a lower mash pH. Darker malts reduce pH more, lighter malts less. Both of the salts you've mentioned would actually make the water harder, buffering the pH higher, so you may want to be careful using them with lighter malts unless you are going to use either softer water, acid additions or acidulated malt.

I have a hard water problem too by the way, and have mostly been using light and very light coloured malts. I got around the problem of high mash pH by mixing a high ratio of water filtered through my RO system (lower kh, GH, neutral pH until mixed with anything that reduces or increases this) with a lower ratio of tap water treated with a 1/4 Campden tablet (supplying calcium as our tap water is rock hard).

I get my malt from themaltmiller though, I like the fact that it comes next day with DPD. I've had a couple of kits from him too, they're malt and hop kits though, so you still have to remember to buy yeast and any additions. Now though I tend to buy 25k of base malt, specialised malts in 1-5k bags, hops etc all separate. Half of the fun is weighing the malt, plus I use BIABacus which adjusts malt quantities for me in relation to it been BIAB and my estimated efficiency. Not having to weigh malt does make things go easier though for sure. lol My wheat beer and summer ale were both custom kits.

Anyway, hope it's still going well for you. :thumb:

 

[_jon_]

My brew day so far is going a lot smoother in every direction... but I think a lot of that is to do with me cleaning all the kit yesterday and arranging it all (not putting away), so it was all clean and ready to go this morning. Then with the grain and hops being pre weighed out, it cut down on the mess and time. (I could do it the night before though to save weighing on the day, so the same affect).

Not only is this brew day quicker, cleaner and a lot less stress and hassle.. my numbers are continuing to be spot on.

Pre boil gravity was 1.041

I'm aiming for 1.048, and it's feasible that it could be spot on post boil.

When sparging I listened to the recommendations here. I drained the strike volume at a trickle through the pump into the kettle.. took about 15 mins. Then I added the sparge water, gave it a good mix and then put the lid back on while I cleaned some more stuff. 15 or so minutes later I trickled into the kettle again at a snails pace through the pump. The wort looks so clear and much deeper than usual.

I'm on the boil now and it's only 1pm. Usually I get to this stage at about 2.30pm.

 

[GerritT]

with a Gerritbrewed AG Kit.

Can't go wrong with that one!! :mrgreen:

Switching from extract to AG or the other way around: it's like having a car driving license and going for a motorbike driving license. A lot is the same and somehow it's new again.
You'll get there :thumb:

 

[Ajhutch]

Great to hear today has gone better. Let us know the final numbers? Practice makes perfect so you're doing a good thing by brewing often.


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[_jon_]

Great to hear today has gone better. Let us know the final numbers? Practice makes perfect so you're doing a good thing by brewing often.


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It was a perfect brew.

Got 1.048 at 23 litres. Looks and smells great. Absolutely bang on. It’s fermenting as we speak :-)


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