All my AG brews are pants...

[Ciaran12s]

I've read a few of your threads recently Jon and the solution to every problem seems to be buying more kit. I've got a homemade 3 vessel system and done 6 brews so far. They've all been good beers. I've made one small change to the system (mash filter) and improved technique each time after learning from the last time.

Take it easy, slow down, research everything before jumping in. If you're wanting good beer fairly quickly maybe get a few fv's and put some kits on with dryhop/hop tea/minimash. Get a bit of a stock built up and work through your all grain technique to get everything ironed out.

 

[Ajhutch]

From reading the 2+2+2 (almost all, got side tracked)... I didn't see that it's carb then condition.

so we're saying:

1.) FV for ~2 weeks
2.) Into Cornie keg, carb, leave for 4 weeks
3.) Tap it and drink

Is that right?

It's a good rule of There's not going to be a perfect one size fits all answer for every beer with timings.

My approach:

- Ferment until it's done. Try not to be constantly opening the FV in this time. Done to me is at least five minutes between airlock bubbles, others will have a different view. At that point I'd do a hydrometer reading and if I'm at or close to my expected FG I'd dry hop if that's what the beer called for.
- Confirm 'done' with a second hydrometer reading three days later (if I dry hopped, this confirmation reading is done when the dry hop is finished, so I don't open my FV more than needed)
- Cold crash if you have the facility to do so
- Package. I bottle or mini keg so they need to be at room temperature to carbonate. I use a couple of PET bottles as a guide to how carbonation is going.
- when the PET bottle is hard I put one in the fridge and drink it. But, and I want to be very clear on this: I do not expect it to be perfect. This is to give me an idea how the beer is developing and how long I should expect to wait now. If it's a very hoppy beer and I want it fresh I may put a few bottles in the fridge now, if it's bigger or maltier and I judge it necessary I will put them all in my shed and forget them for a couple of weeks. In a couple of weeks I'll try another one, and so on until I'm ready to move them all into the 'drinking now' queue.

I've done a beer that I loved at 17 days after brewing. It was dull and faded by a month old. I've done beers that weren't at their best for three months. Rules of thumb, not rigid rules.


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[Nicks90]

I've only done 2 AG's so probably not qualified to offer an opinion, but both were brew in a bag (biab) to make it stupid simple.
In fact the first one I didn't even have a brew bag, so I used an old pillow case!
Second was a 1gal ag again - but mixed with a wilko's bitter 1 can kit and topped up to 15l

First was utterly bland when I bottled it, bit 5 weeks later it's a nice clear clean crisp pint.
The second is a heavy malty beast and 4 weeks in, it needs wayyyyy longer before it's drinkable.

Just bottle them up and put them away somewhere cold and dark. Taste one a week and get em out when it tastes good.

My first AG was sooooo simple. 1.5kg Marisa otter and 100gm oats. Mashed in 5l water at exactly 67c in it's pillow case and dunk sparged it in a second pan with 3l water at 80c.
Boiled it down to 4.5l with some challenger hops chucked in and let it get on. You cannot get simpler.
Yeah,it tastes pretty simple... It's no complex multi faceted taste sensation, but it's a good simple beer and it costs pennies.

 

[Bigcol49]

No, no, no! All that serves is to disrupt the settling that is already underway, and opens a window for infection and possibly oxidisation. Leave it undisturbed in the FV for the duration.

Hi!
. . . but not for several weeks after fermentation has taken place. You don't want beer resting on the trub for an extended period. The OP needs to allow more time for his beers to condition, but he doesn't want to tie up his cornies.
Once fermentation is complete and he would normally transfer to a keg (or bottle), I'm suggesting that he transfers to a FV and lets his beers age in the FV instead of in the Corny.

 

[MyQul]

Occums razor or K.I.S.S

My suggestion is to simplify absolutely everthing not just the recipe

Just use a cheap FV and 2+2+2 to brew the beer along with a simple reciepe. Then bottle the beer. The simpler everything is, the less variables there are and the easier it is to track down any mistakes/ where the problems are/off flavours. Once you've got all the basics nailed go back to kegging and start adding complexity and variables to your brewing (if you want to. But you dont have to because brewing can be as simple or as complicated as you like.)

 

[Bigcol49]

So instead of "grain to glass" in 2.5-3 weeks, it should be grain to glass in closer to 7 weeks?

Hi!
It all depends on the style of beer you are brewing.
I know that you are impatient to drink your own brews, but by not allowing sufficient time for the beer to age you are getting disappointing and discouraging results.

 

[Clint]

Dutto's critical mass is a good analogy. ..you need to brew enough to......
Keep you in (good ) beer...
While you....
Brew;condition:drink. .more beer!
I have around 150 bottles and most of a keg and a brew on the go.
I'm planning my next 5 brews. ....

 

[pms67]

Hi!
. . . but not for several weeks after fermentation has taken place. You don't want beer resting on the trub for an extended period. The OP needs to allow more time for his beers to condition, but he doesn't want to tie up his cornies.
Once fermentation is complete and he would normally transfer to a keg (or bottle), I'm suggesting that he transfers to a FV and lets his beers age in the FV instead of in the Corny.

A lot of people recommend leaving the beer in the FV for a while as the yeast “clean up” all the nasty stuff???
I’m usually 2-3 weeks in the fv as I’m lazy then straight to bottles,I used to use a secondary but now I’ve got temp control it’s a waste of time,chill down for two nights then bottle 👍

 

[Bigcol49]

Iused to use a secondary but now I’ve got temp control it’s a waste of time,chill down for two nights then bottle 👍

Hi!
Perhaps I should not have used the word "secondary". This is not about the "should I rack to secondary or leave it primary" debate.
After fermentation is fully complete, at the stage when you are about to bottle, I am suggesting that a beer could be left to mature in a FV in a cool environment. I've read comments from US homebrewers that they have left some beers in the keg, uncarbonated, for several months. Without masses of fridge space and dozens of Cornies this isn't possible, but I was suggesting using a fermentation bucket for maturing beer.

 

[Dexter101]

As such, all my AG Brews have been rubbish. I just threw away about 17L of my PIPA Clone, since it didn't taste great and I forced down about 9 pints of it at the weekend and felt that I could perform open heart surgery after... so I'm guessing the ABV is poor to say the least.

Any comments on what it tasted like? Bland, bitter, off flavours? considering the majority of the population are happy to drink Carling if a beer is really undrinkable I would say something is seriously wrong. I try my beers at every stage and although i wouldn't want to drink pint after pint of it straight out of the FV even that is palatable...

You say you guess the ABV is poor so would also suggest you start using a hydrometer. its easy to do and if you are unsure just helps to know where the Worts at, whether the beer is finished and finally the ABV of the beer. I know some people don't bother but if you are trying to figure out whats going on I think this would help.

 

[_jon_]

Some great responses here guys, and I thank you all for the guidance.

I am guilty of just throwing more kit into the cupboard in the hope it will help to make better beer and a simpler life (and because I just LOVE buying stuff lol). But I understand that I need to learn what I've got, and learn how to brew properly before I start making complex beers. And if I've learned one thing well from this thread it's that I need to WAIT! I've been impatient, I can't be the only one of us who brews a beer and then just wants to drink it :) but of course, as I'm sure some others on here have learned, it's better to wait and drink good beer than be disappointing.

I am going to brew today, and am looking on BF for a SMASH brew, to keep it nice and simple. I may try the MO & Chinook IPA.

I will take my time, make sure I get all the measurements and volumes right (I spent some time on Monday measuring the deadspace in my equipment and putting accurate numbers into BF). So if I take my time, keep it simple and make sure I get the numbers bang on, hopefully this will be the first great beer of many.

I could use a cornie at the moment, as I have spare ones... so I was thinking for this instance:

1.) Brew (today).
2.) Ferment in carboy (2 x Weeks).
3.) Chuck in cornie keg and put in fridge to cold crash (few days? or longer?)
4.) Add ~30 psi after the few days of cold crash (?) then leave for a few more days (to carb?)
5.) Remove from fridge and put somewhere cool and dark for another 2 weeks.

Would this be an acceptable thought process? I'm unsure really as to carbonation, so maybe could do with some guidance there...

I'd really like to avoid bottling all of it, because I don't really have anywhere convenient to store the bottles. But I have ordered (you know I like buying stuff right lol), a PET pressure bottling thing, and some PET bottles. So I could pull some test bottles from the keg at various times to check progress.

 

[_jon_]

Any comments on what it tasted like? Bland, bitter, off flavours? considering the majority of the population are happy to drink Carling if a beer is really undrinkable I would say something is seriously wrong. I try my beers at every stage and although i wouldn't want to drink pint after pint of it straight out of the FV even that is palatable...

You say you guess the ABV is poor so would also suggest you start using a hydrometer. its easy to do and if you are unsure just helps to know where the Worts at, whether the beer is finished and finally the ABV of the beer. I know some people don't bother but if you are trying to figure out whats going on I think this would help.

The PIPA actually didn't taste that bad, I did drink a fair bit at the weekend. But it was weak and really didn't taste as interesting as a normal punk. It wasn't a complete disaster, but it was essentially Nanny Stake rather then Punk IPA. And I wanted the room in the fridge, so it had to go.

I made that particular beer before I had a hydrometer and refractometer, but I have both now and am starting to keep an eye on the numbers more closely.

 

[Dexter101]

The PIPA actually didn't taste that bad, I did drink a fair bit at the weekend. But it was weak and really didn't taste as interesting as a normal punk. It wasn't a complete disaster, but it was essentially Nanny Stake rather then Punk IPA. And I wanted the room in the fridge, so it had to go.

I made that particular beer before I had a hydrometer and refractometer, but I have both now and am starting to keep an eye on the numbers more closely.

Ah ok, that makes sense. I think keep an eye on the original gravity and make sure it is where you want it to be. Could be your mash isn't getting enough sugars out leading to a weak beer or at some point you are overdiluting the wort

Enjoy the process and see if you can spot where your mistakes are coming from. Might also be worth trying some smaller batches first. A light beer like Nanny state is a nice beer but obviously with space at a premium you don't want to get lumbered with loads! at the moment I do 5L batches and even after Christmas when I will be able to do 20L, any recipes I am not sure about I will still do in smaller amounts just to make sure its good to drink.

 

[Badseed1974]

Some great responses here guys, and I thank you all for the guidance.

I am guilty of just throwing more kit into the cupboard in the hope it will help to make better beer and a simpler life (and because I just LOVE buying stuff lol). But I understand that I need to learn what I've got, and learn how to brew properly before I start making complex beers. And if I've learned one thing well from this thread it's that I need to WAIT! I've been impatient, I can't be the only one of us who brews a beer and then just wants to drink it :) but of course, as I'm sure some others on here have learned, it's better to wait and drink good beer than be disappointing.

I am going to brew today, and am looking on BF for a SMASH brew, to keep it nice and simple. I may try the MO & Chinook IPA.

I will take my time, make sure I get all the measurements and volumes right (I spent some time on Monday measuring the deadspace in my equipment and putting accurate numbers into BF). So if I take my time, keep it simple and make sure I get the numbers bang on, hopefully this will be the first great beer of many.

I could use a cornie at the moment, as I have spare ones... so I was thinking for this instance:

1.) Brew (today).
2.) Ferment in carboy (2 x Weeks).
3.) Chuck in cornie keg and put in fridge to cold crash (few days? or longer?)
4.) Add ~30 psi after the few days of cold crash (?) then leave for a few more days (to carb?)
5.) Remove from fridge and put somewhere cool and dark for another 2 weeks.

Would this be an acceptable thought process? I'm unsure really as to carbonation, so maybe could do with some guidance there...

I'd really like to avoid bottling all of it, because I don't really have anywhere convenient to store the bottles. But I have ordered (you know I like buying stuff right lol), a PET pressure bottling thing, and some PET bottles. So I could pull some test bottles from the keg at various times to check progress.

Have you considered using gelatin? After 2 weeks in the FV you could cold crash then fine with gelatin. Two days later you'll have lovely clear beer ready for force carbing.

 

[Saisonator]

Have you considered using gelatin? After 2 weeks in the FV you could cold crash then fine with gelatin. Two days later you'll have lovely clear beer ready for force carbing.

Conditioning is not just about having clear beer, sometimes it's nothing to do with having clear beer.

 

[foxbat]

A lot of people recommend leaving the beer in the FV for a while as the yeast “clean up” all the nasty stuff???

That oft-quoted 'nasty stuff' is diacetyl. Yeast produce it in the early stage of fermentation and then re-absorb it afterwards. There's a great PDF that explains it all by White Labs here. Here's the important paragraph that explains what we need to do to ensure it's all gone:

It is important to provide sufficient maturation time for diacetyl reduction, commonly known as a "diacetyl
rest". Diacetyl reduction is slower at colder temperatures, so it is essential to incorporate the diacetyl rest
when making cold fermented lagers. The process is simply to raise the fermentation temperature from
lager temperatures (50-55F) to 65-68F for a two day period near the close of the fermentation. Usually the
diacetyl rest is begun when the beer is 2 to 5 specific gravity points away from the target terminal gravity.
The temperature is then lowered to conditioning temperature following diacetyl reduction. For ale
production, the fermentation temperature is usually 65-70F, so temperature modification is not necessary.
But the fermentation should still be "rested" at this temperature for two days to ensure proper diacetyl
reduction. Many brewers make the mistake to quickly crash the fermentation temperature following
terminal gravity. Why not? The beer is done, people are thirsty, and there is no taste of diacetyl in the
beer. Even though the diacetyl can't be tasted, however, the beer may contain high levels of the precursor,
acetolactate, which can be converted to diacetyl. Once the yeast is removed, there is no way to get rid of
the diacetyl.

 

[_jon_]

That oft-quoted 'nasty stuff' is diacetyl. Yeast produce it in the early stage of fermentation and then re-absorb it afterwards. There's a great PDF that explains it all by White Labs here. Here's the important paragraph that explains what we need to do to ensure it's all gone:

That's a nice piece of information, thanks.

But I'm assuming with a 2 x week fermentation, since the active ferementation is usually only a few days... 2 weeks includes diacetyl rest? Or are you meaning ferment for longer?

Assuming I'm fermenting at ~18-20c anyway, and not making lagers, I assume I don't need to worry about raising the temperature for diacetyl rest?

 

[Sadfield]

I could use a cornie at the moment, as I have spare ones... so I was thinking for this instance:

1.) Brew (today).
2.) Ferment in carboy (2 x Weeks).
3.) Chuck in cornie keg and put in fridge to cold crash (few days? or longer?)
4.) Add ~30 psi after the few days of cold crash (?) then leave for a few more days (to carb?)
5.) Remove from fridge and put somewhere cool and dark for another 2 weeks.

Carbonation in keg relies on two factors, head pressure and temperature. Beer holds more co2 in suspension at lower temperatures. With this in mind you can kill a number of birds with one stone, by carbing, crash cooling and conditioning in one process. Instead of force carbing your keg quickly at 30 psi, cool your beer and carb at a lower temperature for longer, a week or so. This will also give a smoother carbonation with smaller bubbles.

Here's a chart that will help to get the right carbonation for the style of beer and tell you what pressure to set for the temperature. I tend to carbonate at 8C for a week or two.

http://jollygoodbeer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/JollyGoodBeer_PSI_Chart_for_CO2.pdf

I note from your initial post, very little conditioning time and suspect (without the benefit of tasting your beer) that diacetyl may still be present. Leaving the beer a little longer before carbonation will give the yeast time to clean up any unwanted fermentation byproducts.

So your process would be...

1) Ferment in carboy for 2 weeks.

2) Transfer to corny keg and leave somewhere warm for a week.

3) Chill and carbonate for a week.


"Inspiration is the impact of a fact on a well-prepared mind" Louis Pasteur

 

[Cwrw666]

I've been AG-ing for 3 years now. That's about 40 brews. I've had very few bad brews and none that I'd ever have considered chucking away. I wouldn't do that unless it had actually gone off and was totally foul!
First 2 brews were single hop brews (EKG from Greg Hughes) and were very dissapointing. Cloudy, bland, just uninspiring. I did a mild once that had a terrible fruity aftertaste but I know what went wrong with that one - it got way too hot during fermentation. All have improved with keeping.
But since then I've learned what to avoid, basics like how much malt to use to get the right OG, temperature control (I still brew in the airing cupboard but I adjust the door opening to get a steady 20c.
These days my beers are excellent. Not bragging, they just are. Probably because I'm very careful about what I choose to brew.

 

[foxbat]

That's a nice piece of information, thanks.

But I'm assuming with a 2 x week fermentation, since the active ferementation is usually only a few days... 2 weeks includes diacetyl rest? Or are you meaning ferment for longer?

Yes that's right, with a 2 week healthy fermentation at ale temperatures you need to do nothing at all. White Labs advice is really aimed at those folks who rush to get the beer out of the FV as soon as FG is hit.

That's a nice piece of information, thanks.
Assuming I'm fermenting at ~18-20c anyway, and not making lagers, I assume I don't need to worry about raising the temperature for diacetyl rest?

Correct.