Sterilisation

[Ian...]

That's 8 hours more leisure time for me over you then. Because if your brew are turning out fine so are mine
More full you in the nicest possible way

+1

My grandad used to brew beer in the bath (probably while he was in it at the same time) and he said it was fine. I was too young to taste it though. and before the sterilisation police have a go at me (again) I am not advocating this for one second. Each to his own is my motto so I will continue with my slap-dash, complacent, bacteria-ridden, 'lucky' methods. My beer is just fine, in fact it's more than fine, it's pretty dam good. And so, very probably, is yours.
:

 

[mcc111]

Speaking as a noob, I think the point is that it does work well for you, however it's not advisable for a homebrew novice. Especially since, with experience, you begin to understand which risks are acceptable and which aren't (and it's your own beer you're playing with). I've learnt a lot from this thread - it's been a good debate. Next brew, I'm definitely cleaning up my act (pun entirely intended).

 

[winelight]

I think the bottom line is that whatever techniques most of us amateurs use, we are doing a pretty good job overall.

Sure, we do get infections from time to time, but perhaps these are due to "external factors" rather than a fundamentally poor job of sanitising equipment or bottles?

By "external factors" I'm thinking of that guy with the dodgy air conditioning, and there are those vinegar flies, and the mistakes or slips we all make from time to time - I dropped the FV lid into my brew the other day, for example.

 

[cask is best]

A sensible post.
Like i have been saying we all have our ways. And should not be critical of different methods if they work for that individual
There are no right or wrong ways if they work .

 

[Good Ed]

I think the bottom line is that whatever techniques most of us amateurs use, we are doing a pretty good job overall.

I think you are doing yourself a disservice, with a few brews under your belt most of us are able to produce beer far superior to the commercial product.

Also this thread is useful for discussion, but personally I am always looking to use the best practice and learn from more experienced brewers. and to quote from Jamil when talking about brewing practices, "... will it produce a good beer, certainly, but will it produce the best possible beer, certainly not..."

 

[Ian...]

A sensible post.
Like i have been saying we all have our ways. And should not be critical of different methods if they work for that individual
There are no right or wrong ways if they work .

+1 Exactly :thumb: Don't lecture others. If it works for you. It works.
:

 

[graysalchemy]

The problem with that Ian is that as Aleman pointed out if a new brewer comes along and reads some of these posts and then ends up chucking 40 pints then that isn't good.

We want new brewers to learn how to do things properly and not end up losing beer due to irresponsible advice.

 

[iceo]

for the sake of 30 mins extra work (cleaning) its not worth losing a brew . you may have spent weeks or even months lovingly caring for a brew .why risk it

 

[cask is best]

Good afternoon all. So the debate about who is right and who is wrong continues. When actually we all have different methods that work. What is wrong with this method bearing i have not lost a brew also bear in mind Aleman has lost around 15 gallons. I'm not dishing his method as his method also is the correct way but for some unknown reason he fell unlucky.

1. Wash hands.
2. Scrub down work surfaces with mild bleach and water and rinse well.
3. Soak bottle tops in hot water and chempro. As well as syphon tube
4. take already cleaned bottles that have been through the dishwasher and no residue or stains are visible.
5. Take steam gun and put nozzle into bottle and pull trigger when bottle starts to heat up put oven gloves on as it gets very hot stop empty small deposit of water collected in bottle and give it another blast.

From then on it's filled with ale bottle tops by now have been rinsed and are waiting to be capped in cold water. As has the syphon tube which has been thoroughly rinsed through with clean cold water.
ps. The first part of my brewing fv, paddle, airlock, Hydrometer. have all been soaked in hot water and chempro for half an hour thoroughly rinsed with cold water and as above all surfaces scubed with bleach. Hands washed blah blah blah. This method kills 99.99% of bacteria inc salmonella . e.coli and listeria which could be on your work surfaces. It works for me with a 100% success rate thus far.
I don't know what method Ian uses but is probably not far off mine minus the steam gun bit so he will probably use chempro or similar. The most important fact is. His method works too

 

[adomant]

Good afternoon all. So the debate about who is right and who is wrong continues

Why is it about who is right and wrong, surely this is about awareness of the the many bottle sanitising methods that are out there and the facts about the effectiveness of each of them?

I actually used to use a hand steamer as yourself but no longer chose that method because it doesn't effectively kill anything that hasn't already been killed in the dishwasher/cleaning process. Try filling a bottle from your batch that has been though the dishwasher/cleaning process but not the steamer and see if it makes any difference - very often, the dishwasher/cleaner process is effective enough which is why you don't have a problem.

This steam bullet method does not give sufficient steam contact time to guarantee killing all spores or microbes that might have survived the cleaning process - this is a scientific fact, as per alemans post. However, those microbes probably aren't present as your cleaning process seems effective.

I use the steam gun for blasting cornie posts and cleaning taps after taking samples but still use a peracetic or starsan spray to sanitise after.

I use the wife's steam mop to clean my conical fermenter because it can get it up to 130c for 30 minutes, which is effective for steam sanitisation.

Cracking discussion this. Now, who wants to have the last word ....

 

[winelight]

surely this is about awareness of the the many bottle sanitising methods that are out there and the facts about the effectiveness of each of them?

Yes, and very educational it is too, thanks to everyone who has contributed.

One thing that occurs to me - short of a bacterial analysis, how do you know a beer is infected? Sure, some you can taste right away, but not everyone will be able to identify every infection - some beers will simply taste worse than others. Does it even matter, if we think the beer is drinkable?

 

[graysalchemy]

What is wrong with this method bearing i have not lost a brew also bear in mind Aleman has lost around 15 gallons. I'm not dishing his method as his method also is the correct way but for some unknown reason he fell unlucky.

Tony (Aleman) has being brewing for 30 yrs and has probably brewed more pints of beer than you could ever dream of both commercially and as a home brewer. He also has a microbiology background and is i think Chair of the Craft Brewers Association and is probably one of the most knowledgeable and experienced brewers on this forum.

You have as yet not experienced an infected beer that doesn't mean that you won't, law of averages would suggest that you will, it happens to all of us from time to time. It may well be that you beer is infected and that a) you haven't noticed it because you palete can not pick it up or it has not been matured enough for it to manifest itself. People who judge beer will be able to tell you things about your beer that you would never have considered.

You seem to think that just because you haven't lost a brew that you method must be foolproof even though the science community at large would consider it is not. You are basing your believe that your method is correct on a very small data set and as you said it is 100% but 100% of how many brews. :hmm: :hmm: . The wider science community has deemed that you need a higher temp pressure and for a time than you use, but still you do not believe the facts given to you, and prefer to be fool hardy in your approach.

That is fine as long as new brewers do not believe what you say and trust the wider belief that steam sterilisation is not the best of methods.

I wish you all the best with your brewing and hope for your sake you don't have an off brew or at least have the sense not make a post about it.

 

[Cononthebarber]

Can I just say that i am very impressed at the healthy debate that my simple question has caused! I now know a great deal more about sterilisation than I did and I know the answer to my orignial post...which is..."no"... :lol:

 

[jonnymorris]

Well said GA.

 

[adomant]

I wish you all the best with your brewing and hope for your sake you don't have an off brew or at least have the sense not make a post about it.

Erm, not sure I agree - I wouldn't discourage "cask is best" from posting, he has not been disrespectful in his posts, just outlining his own experience (which may not have been the same as ours) this thread has been richer for his participation whether I agree with him or not. If he should post about a bad brew, sure they may be a bit of "told you so" but he is still a "brother" in the Homebrew community

 

[dennisking]

What is wrong with this method bearing i have not lost a brew also bear in mind Aleman has lost around 15 gallons. I'm not dishing his method as his method also is the correct way but for some unknown reason he fell unlucky.

Tony (Aleman) has being brewing for 30 yrs and has probably brewed more pints of beer than you could ever dream of both commercially and as a home brewer. He also has a microbiology background and is i think Chair of the Craft Brewers Association and is probably one of the most knowledgeable and experienced brewers on this forum.

You have as yet not experienced an infected beer that doesn't mean that you won't, law of averages would suggest that you will, it happens to all of us from time to time. It may well be that you beer is infected and that a) you haven't noticed it because you palete can not pick it up or it has not been matured enough for it to manifest itself. People who judge beer will be able to tell you things about your beer that you would never have considered.

You seem to think that just because you haven't lost a brew that you method must be foolproof even though the science community at large would consider it is not. You are basing your believe that your method is correct on a very small data set and as you said it is 100% but 100% of how many brews. :hmm: :hmm: . The wider science community has deemed that you need a higher temp pressure and for a time than you use, but still you do not believe the facts given to you, and prefer to be fool hardy in your approach.

That is fine as long as new brewers do not believe what you say and trust the wider belief that steam sterilisation is not the best of methods.

I wish you all the best with your brewing and hope for your sake you don't have an off brew or at least have the sense not make a post about it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Well said.

 

[Ian...]

A lot of passion here from the 'old school'. Just chill! Forgive me for making this crass disrespectful statement... but... it's just beer. It's not the meaning of life (or perhaps it is to some).

Do what works for you. And be free to do it your own way! If it works.... it works! Brewing your own stuff beats the crap out of commercial, pub, beer (on any level).

: : : : : : : :

 

[cask is best]

would agree there Ian. I have six bottles of real ale next to mine in the garage and i reach past them and get one of my H. brewed bottles. They seem to have more taste than commercially brewed beers.
If and i suppose when i get an off batch i will come on here and ask questions weather anyone wants to help is up to them
Regards to all as ever.
CIB

 

[graysalchemy]

A lot of passion here from the 'old school'. Just chill! Forgive me for making this crass disrespectful statement... but... it's just beer. It's not the meaning of life (or perhaps it is to some).

Do what works for you. And be free to do it your own way! If it works.... it works! Brewing your own stuff beats the crap out of commercial, pub, beer (on any level).

: : : : : : : :

The problem that I have and what Aleman had is that it is fine to do what the hell you like but when someone new or less experienced reads these methods and not the subsequent posts, takes on board this advice tries it and has a less than satisfactory experience. It has happened before with other advice given and I am sure it will happen again.

If and i suppose when i get an off batch i will come on here and ask questions weather anyone wants to help is up to them
Regards to all as ever.

Is that finally an admission that perhaps your method is not as satisfactory as you had assumed then?

 

[cask is best]

A lot of passion here from the 'old school'. Just chill! Forgive me for making this crass disrespectful statement... but... it's just beer. It's not the meaning of life (or perhaps it is to some).

Do what works for you. And be free to do it your own way! If it works.... it works! Brewing your own stuff beats the crap out of commercial, pub, beer (on any level).

: : : : : : : :

The problem that I have and what Aleman had is that it is fine to do what the hell you like but when someone new or less experienced reads these methods and not the subsequent posts, takes on board this advice tries it and has a less than satisfactory experience. It has happened before with other advice given and I am sure it will happen again.

[quote="cask is best":1cvdeofs]If and i suppose when i get an off batch i will come on here and ask questions weather anyone wants to help is up to them
Regards to all as ever.

Is that finally an admission that perhaps your method is not as satisfactory as you had assumed then?[/quote:1cvdeofs]
Not at all. If you read my posts it's more than satisfactory it's worked 100% for me up to now. I'm sure you have had to ditch a fair full gallons in your time. I haven't yet.. If i have problems I would not hesitate to ask on here for advice and where i may have gone wrong.
It's not that i don't leave my beer long enough for any nasties to develope. As i have just finished a barrell that i made in March. Supping ale i made in june and had a couple of bottles i stored away last December the brew i made up when i got my steam gun made up the kit and held my breath. All was fine. So thats blown that out of the water.
Even the most expereanced brewer will have one or two bad batches in his life time i suppose for whatever reason. And i will seek help as to it's cause as every brew i have done prieviouse has been fine so this would be out of sync of what i have been doing. Nothing is fool proof in life. And maybe if i do ask for advice i may be i have actually had an off kit or a fly has got in my brew and nothing to do with my sanitising methods. I won't be bullied as to be disscouraged not to ask.
As always Regards and happy sussefull brewing.

: :thumb:
CIB