Sterilisation

[cask is best]

oh i dont know mate. We all brew because we apprieciate a good pint and would know when a pint is off just like the odd one you take back to the bar .
my beer is what it says on the tin when finished or near as dam it. nutty favours toffee caramel so as i said my sanitising must be knob on

regards CIB

 

[Aleman]

I say what works , works.My way works

For You

and there is no need to fanny about like the brewers do not.

Actually the commercial brewers do fanny about quite a bit,CIP with caustic, Rinse, Then sanitise with Peracetic, then fill with wort. . . . what else are you going to do while waiting for the boil to finish?? And casks . . . Cask washer with caustic and peracetic again . . .bottles . . . new off pallet so clean . . . peracetic rinse then fill. . . . it's actually quicker than using steam

Not one bad batch so i must be doing somthing right rather than doing somthing wrong

Or just lucky, Your method works, it probably hits the log kill factor sufficiently, There are some that say you can use a dishwasher on the hot cycle, or 20 minutes in the oven at 130C . . .these probably do a sufficient job, and the beer is gone before a low level infection rears it's ugly head.

The methods that I . . . and other brewers that have had to have a rapid rethink of sanitation techniques when things turn unexpectedly sour . . . . are proposing are known to have a recorded kill factor that is more than enough to ensure that a bottle stays sound . . . for years.

Chemical techniques (using the appropriate chemicals, and yes I do have to buy my own) work, they have published effects . . . with a 100,000 fold reduction (the D-Value 10^5) in contaminants on a surface being achieved in n minutes.

Heat - Dry heat, such as produced in an autoclave or high temperature pressure cooker, is the only guaranteed way to sterilise for microbes relevant to beer. The rule of 125C at 15psi for fifteen minutes is sufficient.

Moist heat has long been viewed favourably by brewers as a totally natural sanitiser. It is also the most hazardous, particularly if near boiling temperatures are used. This, plus a fear of resistant thermophilic lactic acid bacteria, has discouraged the widespread use of moist heat sterilisation in modern brewing

and

Thermophilic bacteria are far more resistant to heat. For example, ten minutes at 60C is only half a D-value, and, hence, will lead to a microbial reduction by a factor of 10^-5 or 3.2. To get to the desired level of 10^5 either more time or a higher temperature is needed. Since the D-value for thermophilic bacteria is 20 minutes, a total of 5 X 20 = 100 minutes at 60C is needed. On the other hand if the temperature is increased by one Z-value, namely from 60C to 100C, then the resulting D-value will be reduced to 20/10=2 minutes. this means that a 5 * 2 = 10 minute contact time is needed to get the 10^5 reduction at 100C

I could work out the D-value and contact time for steam at an additional Z-value . . . but frankly it bores me, and there is little point, there is always someone that will cut corners and because it works that one/two/three/many time(s) adopt it, then come on here in the future and ask why something went wrong . . . . Or more importantly a new brewer comes on here and asks why it didn't work for him and does he have to pour 5 gallons down the drain..

 

[Pjam]

:lol: That told them Aleman

Glad I read that. Not the most interesting part of brewing. We carry out our various procedures but the enemy is invisible to us and we don't know we taken a hit for quite some time after!

pour 5 gallons down the drain..

I'm half expecting it now :?

 

[Aleman]

pour 5 gallons down the drain..

I'm half expecting it now :?

5 Gallons is not such a problem . . . 15 makes me cry a bit

One reason I'm banging on about this is that I was given a bottle of a proper job clone by a fairly good well known brewer who uses steam to sterilise his bottles ( it's so much quicker ) . . . Suffice to say it did NOT get a public review. Apart from a lactic infection, there was copious butrytic acid (think baby vomit!), and vegetable aromas (pedicoccus). . . . The same beer from keg was pretty damned nice.

 

[NickW]

Great info guys cheers!

I wash my bottles out with water twice after finishing the beer. Make sure there is no yeast in there. Then on bottling day I plan to rinse out again with hot water, starsan, bottle tree, then bottle... is this a good routine? :hmm:

 

[Aleman]

I wash my bottles out with water twice after finishing the beer. Make sure there is no yeast in there. Then on bottling day I plan to rinse out again with hot water, starsan, bottle tree, then bottle... is this a good routine? :hmm:

Pretty much what I do, I simply rinse the bottle out three times with hot water, then invert it to drain and dry. Spray 5ml of starsan into the bottle and cap with those plastic reseals (or preferably swing tops) . . . Shake, and store in a crate. On bottling day, shake the bottle, remove the cap, pour out the starsan, fill and cap properly . . . job done.

If I need to clean them then its a 10 minute soak in an oxiclean solution . . . rinse 3 times . . .etc

 

[NickW]

Cheers aleman.

I don't store with any starsan or other solution. At the moment they are sitting open topped on a cabinet. I don't have swing tops

 

[Aleman]

I don't store with any starsan or other solution. At the moment they are sitting open topped on a cabinet. I don't have swing tops

Then store them dry . . .but cover with squares of silver foil . . . simple spray of star san on brew day and Robert is your mums brother

 

[cask is best]

In reply to Aleman. This is by no means an impolite post and should not be seen as one. Just putting right some myths.And is taken from quotes Aleman has taken from my postings on this thread.

I say what works works. My way works.

Ale mans reply. FOR YOU.

MY reply. My method of sanitising/sterilizing my brewing equipment does work not only for me but for dozens of users on here. There is no wrong way one can sterilize equipment as long as care is been taken to do so weather it be with or without chemicals. My preferred way is with as little chemical use as possible. I do use chempro for my fv paddle syphon etc but for all bottles a good blast of very hot steam from a steam gun. into bottles that have already been through the dishwasher and are clean.

I wrote there is no need to fanny about like the brewers do[ Meaning the breweries] This is aimed at the opening posts answer about using bleach. The o.p is not a commercial brewer so thats why i put no need to fanny about. Aleman goes on about commercial brewers. Excuse me a bloke in his kitchen making a brew does not need all the vast array of chemicals to clean 40 bottles. Commercial brewers have to because of H.S REGS and EU legislation. And when their bottles are on the shelf for up to two years. Although a cleaned sterilized sealed bottle of beer cannot get infected because there is nothing in there to infect it.

He then quoted me when i said i have not had one bad batch so i must be doing something right.
He insinuates it's just luck. :whistle: 9 kits this year 6 for me 3 for swombo. Not one bad brew.
FACT steam kills 99.99% of bactaria. According to Karcher. Bold statement that is if it was untrue Karcher would be hurled before the courts. The 99.99% is actualy for all bacteria found on a average kitchen floor. inc Listeria, E.Coli and salmonella. The most types that COULD be around your home He then goes on about Thermophilic bacteria. The chances of a thermophilic growing is very very small indeed and no need for the home brewer to worry about. That is tantamount to scare mongering.

Im sure Alemans sanitising method works But do not throw scorn on mine as i know mine works just as well.
We brew because we like good beer and it's cheaper. By all means take all the chemicals pills potions that some say you must but it is only costing you more for your hobby when it is not at all necessary.
One final piece Aleman once lost 15 gallons of ale. For all the care he takes. I'll just remind folk how many i have lost through my methods A big fat zero. I Did have a flat bottle last week tho. I have also this year taken three pints back to the bar at three different pubs because on two occasions the beer was flat and had a smell the other it tasted like peroxide and these were from cask marquee pubs. Ok one offs unlucky just goes to show even the big boys come unstuck. But for average joe public i would recommend clean hands. Clean bottles that have been washed or dishwashered. Steam bullit giving a blast of steam so they are very very hot. Fill cap store wait then enjoy.

As i say this is not an impolite post. Please do not take it as one.

Regards.
CIB :

 

[Hawks]

Are you really recommending this and saying its the same based on 9 kits ?

 

[cask is best]

Law of averages my friend. 9 kits no failed in a year i make that 100% up to now. Ill let you know if i ever get an infected brew from lack of hygiene tho . But dont hold your breath.
Regards
CIB

 

[NickW]

I know aleman can be a bit "to the point" sometimes, but he knows his stuff.

He's only trying to make sure the best practice is available to all brewers, new and old, so they minimize any possibility of ruining their beer.

Your method has worked for you so far and that's brilliant, but there's a lot of experience on this forum and I always take heed in its advice.

Keep doing what you're doing if it works, I would too.

 

[Hawks]

I'd maybe bookmark this page though

Don't take this the wrong way at all, I'm the first to admit I don't always follow best practice, but then I'm choosier about at what point in the brewing process. There is some great advice in this thread from VERY experienced brewers who have been there, seen it, got the t-shirt and probably ditched the bottles / kegs and learnt the hard way here and there. ( I know I have )

You may not want to take it and that's fine - as you say, its a law of averages - and I reckon sooner or later you'll not have your 100% record.

But don't advise people it's the same - it's not, the science is there to show it. You are PROBABLY doing enough and you are getting away with it but it's not the same. Don't be responsible for someone having to chuck beer down the drain.

 

[Aleman]

30 years of brewing . . . 1 Bad batch . . . because I became sloppy and complacent. I have had other batches go sour over time on me . . which I tracked down to a persistent lactobacter infection . . . Source was the kitchen . . . changed where I brew, and no more beers went sour over time.

Thermophilic Lactic acid bacteria ARE present in malt, not myth, not scaremongering. . . . Lactic infections are very common in home brewed beer. At the competition that was held at Sutton on several occasions we had Dr Keith Thomas from University of Sunderlands Brewlab operation attend and he did several examinations of beers entered in the competition . . . over half of these had bacteria present!.

I have never denied that steam will not kill 100% of bacterial, indeed used correctly it is the only efficient way to ensure 100% sterile conditions. . . . I've even outlined the correct conditions for the use of steam (15 minutes at 15psi, 121C), and provided the backup theory as to why a 20 (more or less) Second burst of hot (?????C) steam, may not be sufficient to achieve the results you desire. I've even provided an example where it didn't work . . ok not for you, but for another, just as diligent, brewer.

I'm no lover of the chemical approach, and if I could find a better more efficient method then trust me I would jump at it.

 

[cask is best]

excellent debate this thread btw.

As said there is no right or wrong way to sanitise your equipment 99,99% of nasties killed is good for me.
We all have our ways. For me its if it ain't broke dont mend it.
Ta Ta for now
CIB

 

[Cyclops]

I wrote there is no need to fanny about like the brewers do[ Meaning the breweries] This is aimed at the opening posts answer about using bleach. The o.p is not a commercial brewer so thats why i put no need to fanny about. Aleman goes on about commercial brewers. Excuse me a bloke in his kitchen making a brew does not need all the vast array of chemicals to clean 40 bottles. Commercial brewers have to because of H.S REGS and EU legislation. And when their bottles are on the shelf for up to two years. Although a cleaned sterilized sealed bottle of beer cannot get infected because there is nothing in there to infect it.

I am afraid to say that most commercial beers are only on the shelf for a maximum of 1 year, infact a lot have a BBE date of only 36 weeks.

The process which a large commercial brewery could be done 2 ways, they either use a tunnel pasteuriser or a flash pasteuriser.

If using a tunnel pasteuriser then it is not too much of a problem with ensuring the bottles are completely free of contaminants, they will be put down the line with no covering on and then rinsed with water in the filler and then filled and crowned. This then goes into the tunnel pasteuriser, pasteurising the crown, bottle and beer inside. This is very expensive to run and more and more breweries are starting to move away from this type.

If using a flash pasteuriser you have to be a lot more careful. The pallets of bottles have layer pads on each layer to cover the neck opening which are banded up so they stay tight to the bottle. The process when making the glass if found to be good enough to not induce an antibacterial infection. If working on the depalletiser machine you would normally have to wear gloves and wear a gown to not contaminate the bottle. Any bottles that have been touched with naked hands need to be thrown away. The bottle conveyors all have covers over them to prevent anything falling in them. Next up is the bottle rinser, this will probably contain Chlorine Dioxide and water. Moving its way under the filling heads it fills the bottles and crowns them.
The beer is flash pasteurised into a SBT which is then filled into the bottles. If you notice with this method the crown and bottle is not pasteurised so could be a source of infection if precautions are not taken.

 

[markmark]

You've been lucky cib......very lucky imo.

I use a cheap oxy based cleaner followed by copious rinsing.
To sanitise I use peracetic acid (Perbac) diluted at 1ml/100ml water.

There is no way I would ever risk 8 hours of my time and 40 litres of wort or finished beer in steam cleaned FV's, kegs or bottles.......absolutely no way. :lol:

 

[cask is best]

That's 8 hours more leisure time for me over you then. Because if your brew are turning out fine so are mine
More full you in the nicest possible way

 

[Aleman]

I think Mark is referring to the 8 hours taken up with an all grain brew day rather than just opening a tin or two . . . . Not that there is anything wrong with opening a tin or two

 

[cask is best]

yeh true. I enjoy kits. I get a decent pint out of them. So im quite happy with them to kepp on with them esp nowadays a vast amount on offer. not like 30 years ago i had a choice of john Bull caxtons an geaordie. maybe one or two more