More Advanced Water Treatment

[Drunkula]

@Gerrylo I'm holding off saying anything because I'm just making sure until the big man comes to town, but your sulphate to chloride ratio is almost 3:1 so you're in the hoppy/bitter territory for your plain water - the levels are low so modifying your water will be dead easy to push to the malty side with calcium chloride or go mad hoppy with gypsum. It would be good to know your actual alkalinity if you want to do mash acidification and you could just email your water people for that - that's what I did. But it looks like you're in a great starting place with water you can build up from.

My water is really close to yours and tonight I got some calcium chloride for the first time and made up a solution and got it blind added to my beers already brewed - post fermentation - then split between glasses. I picked the right one every time - the chloride makes things more malty / less bitter. I don't actually know the ratio change but my water is exactly 2:1 sulphate to chloride and I picked a few balanced beers that weren't hop or dark monsters for the test. One of them almost tasted like flat coke with the addition, but with chocolate. A beer I'd classed as a 4/10 became almost cask like and was nice and a 7/10.

I was wowed by what my first delve into water adjustment can bring, even post-carbonation and know this isn't something just for all grain brewers, or extract brewers, or kit brewers, but for everyone.

It's one of those things that seems scary at first because it's an extra step but it's really not that huge - though most articles out there make it seem like it is.

The flavour changes just from the splits with calcium chloride tonight have excited me as much as different yeasts Unless you're a freak (me) and want to fix things 'in post' for every bottle then it's a bit daft, but maybe if you tasted as you were kegging or bottling you could adjust during that.... and that's what my next batch is going to do.

If anyone has already done this link it up.

And I haven't even got any gypsum yet!

 

[Gerryjo]

@Gerrylo I'm holding off saying anything because I'm just making sure until the big man comes to town, but your sulphate to chloride ratio is almost 3:1 so you're in the hoppy/bitter territory for your plain water - the levels are low so modifying your water will be dead easy to push to the malty side with calcium chloride or go mad hoppy with gypsum. It would be good to know your actual alkalinity if you want to do mash acidification and you could just email your water people for that - that's what I did. But it looks like you're in a great starting place with water you can build up from.

My water is really close to yours and tonight I got some calcium chloride for the first time and made up a solution and got it blind added to my beers already brewed - post fermentation - then split between glasses. I picked the right one every time - the chloride makes things more malty / less bitter. I don't actually know the ratio change but my water is exactly 2:1 sulphate to chloride and I picked a few balanced beers that weren't hop or dark monsters for the test. One of them almost tasted like flat coke with the addition, but with chocolate. A beer I'd classed as a 4/10 became almost cask like and was nice and a 7/10.

I was wowed by what my first delve into water adjustment can bring, even post-carbonation and know this isn't something just for all grain brewers, or extract brewers, or kit brewers, but for everyone.

It's one of those things that seems scary at first because it's an extra step but it's really not that huge - though most articles out there make it seem like it is.

The flavour changes just from the splits with calcium chloride tonight have excited me as much as different yeasts Unless you're a freak (me) and want to fix things 'in post' for every bottle then it's a bit daft, but maybe if you tasted as you were kegging or bottling you could adjust during that.... and that's what my next batch is going to do.

If anyone has already done this link it up.

And I haven't even got any gypsum yet!

Cheers for that @Drunkula.
I have gypsum,citric acid,aciduated malt and a few other additions but have not tried any one of them.
I was toying with the water calculator on brewers friend seeing that each salt addition would change and how out of balance it showed when I changed the target profile.
Shall certainly be giving it a go for sure..

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[mabrungard]

The total concentrations reported for SO4 and Cl in that Derry water report make the SO4/Cl ratio meaningless for the water. That water won't accentuate hoppiness or bitterness. Those ion concentrations would need to be significantly increased to produce that effect.

As noted in the water report, they don't provide the most important ion concentrations that are needed for brewing (Ca, Mg, and alkalinity). They do invite the reader to contact them directly for that information.

 

[Drunkula]

The total concentrations reported for SO4 and Cl in that Derry water report make the SO4/Cl ratio meaningless for the water. That water won't accentuate hoppiness or bitterness. Those ion concentrations would need to be significantly increased to produce that effect.

What levels should be considered a minimum?

 

[mabrungard]

Since Gerry says he prefers lagers and stouts, the level of SO4 and Cl could be acceptable for brewing those beers. However, if the goal is to brew hoppier and more bittered beers, then boosting the SO4 level into the 200 to 300 ppm range is not unreasonable.

 

[Drunkula]

Since Gerry says he prefers lagers and stouts, the level of SO4 and Cl could be acceptable for brewing those beers. However, if the goal is to brew hoppier and more bittered beers, then boosting the SO4 level into the 200 to 300 ppm range is not unreasonable.

Thanks mabrungard - do the same things apply for chloride when you're pushing things to the malty side?

I finally got to grips with your spreadsheet last week - really appreciate the great work you've done.

 

[strange-steve]

@Gerryjo
Sorry for the belated reply, been a busy couple of weeks. Your water is very similar to mine and is a decent starting place for building your own profiles. As Martin said, you don't know the alkalinity however, so it'd be worth testing that for yourself. Then when you have that value, have a look at the beginners guide and follow the directions there. That'll get you started for now.

 

[Gerryjo]

@Gerryjo
Sorry for the belated reply, been a busy couple of weeks. Your water is very similar to mine and is a decent starting place for building your own profiles. As Martin said, you don't know the alkalinity however, so it'd be worth testing that for yourself. Then when you have that value, have a look at the beginners guide and follow the directions there. That'll get you started for now.

Cheers @strange-steve as I have been looking through the guide and have ordered a safety kit to have a go at testing.Thanks for the reply[emoji106]


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[Zephyr259]

With all the discussion on bitters I thought I'd join in. My next brew is a Yorkshire bitter inspired by the Greg Hughes recipe but with a couple of tweaks, mostly using flaked barley instead of wheat.

Recipe for 15 L is 2.2 kg pale malt, 200 g crystal (155 ebc), 30 g chocolate, 250 g flaked barley, estimated at 18.4 ebc. I've plugged in the details to bru'n water and set it to amber balanced which gives the following profile.

50 Ca
75 SO4
63 Cl
40 HCO3

With my soft water this is easy to match, getting the SO4/Cl targets results in 68 mg/L Ca, but should I experiment with a higher mineral load and if so how high?

Thanks

 

[Sadfield]

With all the discussion on bitters I thought I'd join in. My next brew is a Yorkshire bitter inspired by the Greg Hughes recipe but with a couple of tweaks, mostly using flaked barley instead of wheat.

Recipe for 15 L is 2.2 kg pale malt, 200 g crystal (155 ebc), 30 g chocolate, 250 g flaked barley, estimated at 18.4 ebc. I've plugged in the details to bru'n water and set it to amber balanced which gives the following profile.

50 Ca
75 SO4
63 Cl
40 HCO3

With my soft water this is easy to match, getting the SO4/Cl targets results in 68 mg/L Ca, but should I experiment with a higher mineral load and if so how high?

Thanks

All depends on what you are aiming for.

Sulfate (SO4) accentuates bitterness, Sodium (Na) accentuates malt sweetness and Chloride (Cl) accentuates fullness of flavour. Having said that raising both Sulphate and Sodium doesn't necessarily mean that beer tastes bigger and better. Chloride, as with adding salt to food, tolerance can be very personal to the drinker in higher ranges.

The recommended ranges (John Palmer) are around the following:

Sulphate 50-350.
Sodium 0-150.
Chloride 0-250.

 

[Gerryjo]

@strange-steve ,tested for alkalinity tonight and if I'm reading correctly it has a reading of 96.66ppm
I had a reading of 5.4 on the syringe and when multiplied by 17.9 as stated in your guide(which is an excellent read).I forgot to order the Ca test kit but shall do so in order to get to grips.Cheers again.

 

[strange-steve]

tested for alkalinity tonight and if I'm reading correctly it has a reading of 96.66ppm
I had a reading of 5.4 on the syringe and when multiplied by 17.9 as stated in your guide(which is an excellent read).I forgot to order the Ca test kit but shall do so in order to get to grips.Cheers again.

That sounds about right but the way you worded this part confused me. Just to clarify, you use the reading on the syringe to determine the alkalinity in dKH using the chart that comes in the kit (see below), then convert that to ppm as CaCO3 by multiplying by 17.9. Is that what you did?

 

[strange-steve]

@Zephyr259
That mineralisation seems rather low for a bitter imo. Try taking the calcium up to about 100-120 ppm with your choice of gypsum and/or calcium chloride as per Sadfield's advice above.

 

[Sadfield]

For guidance there are some of Graham Wheelers water profiles (Burton, Dry Pale, Sweet Pale, Bitter.....Etc) in his Water Treatment calculator over on Jims. A good alternative to any American literature that are either scared of mineral content or have "Burton" profiles you can stand a spoon in. Find them under the Target Liquor drop down menu.

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

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[Zephyr259]

Thanks guys, I knew boosting it was a good plan and I want close to a 1:1 ratio but I didn't know what to aim for level wise, 100 - 120 calcium helps that.

 

[Gerryjo]

That sounds about right but the way you worded this part confused me. Just to clarify, you use the reading on the syringe to determine the alkalinity in dKH using the chart that comes in the kit (see below), then convert that to ppm as CaCO3 by multiplying by 17.9. Is that what you did?

Yes that's exactly what I did but my chart differs from yours slightly and is a bit baffling due to lack of info on my kit.

The reading on the syringe was 0.64mls which then gave me 5.4dkh value * 17.9 = 96.66 ppm.
Sorry for the lack of clarification.
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[trueblue]

For guidance there are some of Graham Wheelers water profiles (Burton, Dry Pale, Sweet Pale, Bitter.....Etc) in his Water Treatment calculator over on Jims. A good alternative to any American literature that are either scared of mineral content or have "Burton" profiles you can stand a spoon in. Find them under the Target Liquor drop down menu.

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

I have used those profiles on Graham's calculator for years, works well for me.

 

[Zephyr259]

Ok, so Wheeler's figures for bitter are:

150 Ca
10 Mg
40 Na
273 SO4
137 Cl
15 CO3 (annoying as I think in HCO3 but it seems to be ~1:2 ratio)

Edit - After some issues with Bru'n water not matching Wheeler's figures it suddenly started agreeing. I also read the notes for Wheeler's calc and see that you adjust calcium to hit target pH rather than strictly adhere to the numbers and add bicarbonate.

Adjusting for to pH 5.4 give the following.

103 Ca
10 Mg
39 Na
206 SO4
104 Cl
42 HCO3 (my water)

Looks good to me I guess. :-) Thanks

 

[Gerryjo]

Hi @strange-steve,I emailed NI water and got a very rapid response so I used their information with my test result and input it to Brewers friend water calculator and got interesting results.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=9JXCHKL

Here's the results they sent me to day.

"Based on 2017 results, the ZN0607 Corrody Derry supply zone covering the above area had an average hardness of 34.7 mg Ca/l. The average Magnesium level was 3.84 mg/l. NI Water’s regulatory sampling does not include any test for Carbonate. However, an estimated average Carbonate/alkalinity level of 102.75 mg/l has been provided by an experienced member of staff.
The Water Quality Report for 2017 for this area shows the average Sodium (Na) and Chloride (Cl) levels per litre (/l). These were 13.094 mg Na/l and 20.560 mg Cl/l. For the same period, the average Sulphate level was 58.583 mg SO4/l. The average pH level can be found under ‘Hydrogen Ion’ and for this period was 7.541."

Been messing with it and changed profile from light and malty to light and hoppy.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=B1KZX4X

Thanks for the help again.

 

[dan125]

Just been reading in Gordon Strong's Brewing Better Beer that mash pH is measured at mash temp, and that if the sample is cooled it will read around 0.35 higher than at mash temp.
Is this right as it might explain the higher than expected pH results I've been getting?
:cheers7: