More Advanced Water Treatment

[BREWERS DROOP]

In short no, RO water and distilled water are not the same.

Distilled water is condensed steam. It contains absolutely no minerals as they can’t float - ie evaporate with the steam.

RO water passes through a filter membrane. It strips most, but not all minerals.

IMO Bru’n Water is ***** and inaccurate. I’d steer clear and use BS. I got so frustrated with Bru’n Water on every level. I’d bet your pH was way off from using Bru’n Water?

Darker malts are acidic by nature, and can be at vary degrees depending on the maltings. It’s important when adding grains to recipes in BS that you edit grain details to match that of your grain. ie EBC, etc.

Just to check, are you sure that 44.17g gypsum is correct? That’s a huge amount, ridiculously so, and would make your mash extremely acidic. Even with an alkalinity of 13.2 as you’ve claimed.

I have just tried the simple calculator on the HB forum and that's what it came up with,im just doing the recipe in beersmith at the moment and will see what that comes out at,it is 86ltrs of water.And yes the Bru n Water ph have been out by a country mile.I always do the ebc of all my grains

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

87.35 ltrs RO Water

Beersmith shows in the Mash
Gypsum 43.36g
Calcium Chloride 23.19g
Epsom salt 11.73g
Salt 4.68g

In the Boil
Calcium chloride 2.4g
Salt 0.61g
Epsom salt 0.13g

 

[Ghillie]

87.35 ltrs RO Water

Beersmith shows in the Mash
Gypsum 43.36g
Calcium Chloride 23.19g
Epsom salt 11.73g
Salt 4.68g

In the Boil
Calcium chloride 2.4g
Salt 0.61g
Epsom salt 0.13g

Missed the volume! That’s a big kettle!

The only other thing I can say is why doesn’t BeerSmith split your gypsum additions between mash and boil?

I’ve never done a full volume (no sparge) mash - but I would have thought BS would still split gypsum between the mash and the boil like it has done for the other minerals?

I’d be confident with BS’s recommended values - standing by with some baking powder wouldn’t hurt though. Probably a table spoon at a time given your volumes to bump up 0.2 or so where necessary.

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Missed the volume! That’s a big kettle!

The only other thing I can say is why doesn’t BeerSmith split your gypsum additions between mash and boil?

I’ve never done a full volume (no sparge) mash - but I would have thought BS would still split gypsum between the mash and the boil like it has done for the others?

I’d be confident with BS’s recommended values - standing by with some baking power wouldn’t hurt though. Probably a table spoon at a time given your volumes to bump up 0.2 or so where necessary.

Cheers for the input greatly appreciated

 

[Ghillie]

Cheers for the input greatly appreciated

No problem! Good luck. Would be good to hear where your pH lands! Especially relative to Bru’n Water.

 

[mabrungard]

I am adding the following
44.17g of gypsum to the mash

and the remaining to the boiler
Table salt 4.81g
Epsom 17.44g
Calcium Chloride 1.49g

The last brew I did, my ph of the mash was 4.5 way out,its always been spot on prior to using ro water and some dark malt in the mash for the full hour. (Maybe dark malt left until the last 15 minutes of the mash then add???)
The brew before that was spot on 5.3 no dark malts at all.

44g of gypsum? Is this larger than a typical 20L batch? That is a lot.

If you were using RO or distilled water, the lack of alkalinity in either of those waters is the reason why the pH ended up so low. The dark malts drive pH down and alkalinity is REQUIRED to keep the pH from dropping too low. I don't see that any alkalinity contributors such as lime or baking soda were used, so I'm not at all surprised with the 4.5 pH result.

Adding the dark malts late in the mash does help avoid an overly low mash pH and excessive proteolysis. Excessive proteolysis kills your beer's body and you end up with a thin beer. In essence, the late addition is sort of what Guinness does, excepting that they use a steeped roast barley solution to add to the main pale malt wort after the mashing.

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

44g of gypsum? Is this larger than a typical 20L batch? That is a lot.

If you were using RO or distilled water, the lack of alkalinity in either of those waters is the reason why the pH ended up so low. The dark malts drive pH down and alkalinity is REQUIRED to keep the pH from dropping too low. I don't see that any alkalinity contributors such as lime or baking soda were used, so I'm not at all surprised with the 4.5 pH result.

Adding the dark malts late in the mash does help avoid an overly low mash pH and excessive proteolysis. Excessive proteolysis kills your beer's body and you end up with a thin beer. In essence, the late addition is sort of what Guinness does, excepting that they use a steeped roast barley solution to add to the main pale malt wort after the mashing.

This is an 86 ltr water profile.As stated my brew before was spot on with the PH at 5.3,just pale malt and crystal,with a few oats,so i cant understand it.Beersmith worked the additions out,and added no additions of Lime or Baking soda.

 

[Martin O]

Hi all,

Firstly thanks for this guide Steve it's really helpful.

I want to brew a Helles larger and am trying to work out my water adjustments. My water profile is:

40 calcium
74 sulphate
20 chloride
60 Alkalinity

I'm a bit stumped as to how to adjust or what to aim for, is my sulphate too high for this style?

Is anyone able to offer some advice please? Has anyone brewed larger with a similar profile?

Thanks

 

[strange-steve]

If you want to reduce the sulphate you can dilute with something like Ashbeck but I don't think your sulphate is unreasonably high. Personally I would reduce the alkalinity to about 20 ppm and add a little calcium chloride, 0.1g/l or so.

 

[Martin O]

If you want to reduce the sulphate you can dilute with something like Ashbeck but I don't think your sulphate is unreasonably high. Personally I would reduce the alkalinity to about 20 ppm and add a little calcium chloride, 0.1g/l or so.

Thanks I will do as suggested and reduce Alkalinity and a some chloride.

 

[Crystal_Ball]

I’ve just moved from Essex to Cornwall so have moved from one extreme to the other with regard to water. I started following this guide when I first starting doing water treatment 2 years ago so understand what I need to do generally. The question I have is now understanding my new water report.

I’ve seen on the website that Calcium is 21 to 40 mg/l and Calcium Carbonate is 51 to 100mg/l. Hardness is 25mg/l Ca. Are these the Alkalinity and Calcium numbers?

I’m happy adjusting Alkalinity and calcium with the Salifert test kits, but I don’t know where to start with the chloride and sulphate as I can’t see them on the water report, which I have attached. Anyone the wiser or am I contacting the water company?

 

[strange-steve]

I’ve just moved from Essex to Cornwall so have moved from one extreme to the other with regard to water. I started following this guide when I first starting doing water treatment 2 years ago so understand what I need to do generally. The question I have is now understanding my new water report.

I’ve seen on the website that Calcium is 21 to 40 mg/l and Calcium Carbonate is 51 to 100mg/l. Hardness is 25mg/l Ca. Are these the Alkalinity and Calcium numbers?

I’m happy adjusting Alkalinity and calcium with the Salifert test kits, but I don’t know where to start with the chloride and sulphate as I can’t see them on the water report, which I have attached. Anyone the wiser or am I contacting the water company?

I can't seem to open your attachment for some reason.

 

[Crystal_Ball]

I can't seem to open your attachment for some reason.

Might have been the way i saved the PDF?? I have reattached file plus here is the website link:
https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zc1-wq-report-2019.pdf

 

[strange-steve]

Might have been the way i saved the PDF?? I have reattached file plus here is the website link:
https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zc1-wq-report-2019.pdf

Yep got it
Calcium carbonate is a bit ambiguous without context, because there's probably not any CaCO3 actually in the water but is often used as a reference for alkalinity and/or hardness. Also the report is a little unclear with the hardness value which is usually given as either total hardness or calcium hardness, but it states total hardness as calcium. But since you've got the Salifert Kits I would rely on them for calcium and alkalinity rather than trying to figure it out.

Wrt the sulphate and chloride values, you're right that they aren't included but the company might be able to tell you if you contact them. If not then it might be worth getting an analysis done.

 

[Crystal_Ball]

Yep got it
Calcium carbonate is a bit ambiguous without context, because there's probably not any CaCO3 actually in the water but is often used as a reference for alkalinity and/or hardness. Also the report is a little unclear with the hardness value which is usually given as either total hardness or calcium hardness, but it states total hardness as calcium. But since you've got the Salifert Kits I would rely on them for calcium and alkalinity rather than trying to figure it out.

Wrt the sulphate and chloride values, you're right that they aren't included but the company might be able to tell you if you contact them. If not then it might be worth getting an analysis done.

Got a more detailed water report from the supplier, so have my chloride and sulphate numbers.