More Advanced Water Treatment

[Hoddy]

I just thought I'd add an accompaniment to the beginners water treatment post (here) for anyone who fancies a little more fine tuning. This step isn't necessary but once you have a grasp on the basics of water treatment, you may want to advance to this step for a little more control over your brew.

Sulphate:Chloride Ratio

As mentioned in the OP, sulphate and chloride are ions which can be manipulated to enhance certain characteristics of a beer (see exbeeriment here). It seems to be the case that the ratio between these two ions is more important than the overall concentration of them in determining which flavours are enhanced. In other words, water with 100ppm sulphate and 50ppm chloride will be effectively the same as water with 250ppm sulphate and 125ppm chloride because they have the same ratio of 2:1 (or 2.0). (Brulosophy did an experiment backing this up here.) For this effect however, a fairly moderate ion concentration is required. Aim for a minimum of 50ppm or so for both sulphate and chloride.

So we can use varying amounts of gypsum and/or calcium chloride to aim for the desired ratio. Now this should be done according to personal taste, but the following table should give you a good idea of where to start (source):

0 - 0.4: Too Malty
0.4 - 0.6: Very Malty
0.6 - 0.8: Malty
0.8 - 1.5: Balanced
1.5 - 2.0: Slightly Bitter
2 - 4: Bitter
4 - 9: Very bitter
9+: Too bitter!

Obviously in order to do this, you will require knowledge of your water's concentration of sulphate and chloride which are usually included on the water report from your supplier. These figures will not be terribly accurate, but should be close enough for our purposes. You can now determine how much gypsum/calcium chloride to add to achieve the desired ratio. The following tables tell you the increase in sulphate or chloride when adding salts. I've also included increase in calcium just for reference.

Gypsum:
Addition - Increase in sulphate - Increase in calcium
0.1 g/L - 56 ppm - 23 ppm
0.2 g/L - 112 ppm - 46 ppm
0.3 g/L - 167 ppm - 69 ppm
0.4 g/L - 223 ppm - 92 ppm
0.5 g/L - 279 ppm - 115 ppm
0.6 g/L - 335 ppm - 138 ppm

Calcium Chloride:
Addition - Increase in chloride - Increase in calcium
0.1g/L - 48 ppm - 27 ppm
0.15g/L - 72 ppm - 41 ppm
0.2g/L - 97 ppm - 54 ppm
0.25g/L - 121 ppm - 68 ppm
0.3g/L - 145 ppm - 81 ppm

Examples:

Say you want to brew a red ale and your tap water has 140ppm sulphate and 50ppm chloride. Currently the ratio is 2.8 (140 divided by 50) which is ideal for an IPA but not for a red ale. Say you want to aim for a ratio of 0.8 which means increasing the chloride. As you can see above, adding 0.25g/L of calcium chloride will give you a ratio of 140:171 which is 0.82, pretty close. (Note you may need to add more salts depending on the calcium level of your tap water.)

If you use RO water then it's very simple. For example, if I was brewing a very bitter DIPA then I want to add around 100 ppm of calcium with a sulphate:chloride ratio of about 4:1. As you can see from the tables above, an addition of 0.4g/L of gypsum and 0.1g/L of calcium chloride will give me:
calcium - 119ppm
sulphate - 223ppm
chloride - 48ppm
Ratio of 4.6
Which is close enough.

Be aware however that it's not always possible to achieve the desired water profile, depending on your tap water's mineral content. In general it's best to keep sulphate levels below 400ppm, and considerably lower if the chloride is high, otherwise you could get a harsh, minerally flavour in your beer. Chloride should generally be kept below 150ppm, again especially important if the sulphate is high. In other words, you don't want both the sulphate and chloride to be at, or close to, their maximum. So in some cases it may be necessary to use low mineral bottled water such as Tesco Ashbeck, or to dilute your tap water with reverse osmosis (RO) water.

Any questions, please ask and I'll do my best to answer them.

For a more indepth article on water treatment see the excellent Water Knowledge page from Bru'n Water (here).

Hey Steve,

I’ve got a question on the bit about having a minimum ion content of above 50ppm sulfate and calcium for the mineral additions to have an affect to achieve the desired affect. ie ratios and so on.

My base water has sulfate at 12ppm and calcium at 47ppm (chloride at 12ppm) and I’ve always found if I dose much more than above 0.15g/L of gypsum my beers can be too dry and over time I’ve been almost excluding surfaces and just using calcium to get the ratio I want for some beers (around 0.4 for super juicey NEIPA) but I still seem to have a slight dry edge.

So basicly the question is having those base ions that low can they truly have that affect? And if so should I be looking at raising all of the ion content to that 100ppm region to achieve the ratio I want and therefore water character and the final beer to not be influenced by another ion because the two we are interested are so low.

Does that make sense?

 

[strange-steve]

my tap water is alkalinity 242 mg/L as CaCO3, total hardness as CaCO3 423, pH 7.4
chloride 71, magnesium 9.3, SO4 111, calcium 81, sodium 46

my question - If I dilute tap water 1:1 with ashbeck water, or even 2:1 can I stop using CRS
and should I add any CaSO4 or MgSO4

thanks

No, even if you diluted 2:1 with distilled water the alkalinity would be about 80ppm which is still too high for a pale beer. It would mean you wouldn't need as much CRS though if that's what you're aiming for.

Some gypsum (CaSO4) would be a good addition but I wouldn't bother with the Epson salt, there's not really any need for you to add magnesium.

 

[strange-steve]

The temperature adjustment function is great and means you can get pH readings quickly from your mash without having to chill it too much. The temperature correction function works up to 50C.

Although the ATC is a handy feature, just be aware that using the meter at higher temperatures will shorten the life span of the probe. My meter has ATC but I always chill samples to <30° before taking a reading.

 

[Ghillie]

Although the ATC is a handy feature, just be aware that using the meter at higher temperatures will shorten the life span of the probe. My meter has ATC but I always chill samples to <30° before taking a reading.

I agree Steve.

Because I'm a bit of a cynic, I too use the same approach that you mentioned. Never in a rush to check mash pH as the calculators are very accurate. I normally just take a sample about 45 mins in and let it cool naturally. Doesn't take long in the garage at this time of year anyway!

 

[strange-steve]

So basicly the question is having those base ions that low can they truly have that affect? And if so should I be looking at raising all of the ion content to that 100ppm region to achieve the ratio I want and therefore water character and the final beer to not be influenced by another ion because the two we are interested are so low.

Honestly I don't know, but it has been suggested that for the sulphate:chloride ratio to "work" you need a moderate ion content of +50ppm of each sulphate and chloride. Personally I haven't done much experimentation with this, however I did once make a NEIPA with RO water and no added sulphate because I was having the same issue as yourself. It did seem to reduce (but not eliminate) the dry/bitterness I was getting from the hops.

Not very helpful I know, but it might be worth upping the sulphate to 50ppm and then increasing the chloride to 150ppm (a ratio of 0.33) to see if it's any better.

 

[Ghillie]

So basicly the question is having those base ions that low can they truly have that affect? And if so should I be looking at raising all of the ion content to that 100ppm region to achieve the ratio I want and therefore water character and the final beer to not be influenced by another ion because the two we are interested are so low.

A sulphate to chloride ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 will increase hop character, but also increased perceived bitterness. There's a lot of ambiguity on the subject because there's only really talk of the ratio itself, without proper consideration of the actual quantities of sulphates and chlorides.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/05/01/wa...d-when-ratio-is-the-same-exbeeriment-results/

Not sure if it will help you any, but I've attached some screenshots of my water profile and what I do to get the 3:1 ratio for what I deem to be "decent amounts" of sulphates and chlorides. I pay no attention to Mg because it's only necessary for yeast health; but there is already sufficient Mg contained in the yeast sachets. Likewise Na, not even sure why I'd want salty beer...

 

[bobukbrewer]

if my SO4 to chloride ratio is 2:1 then how much magnesium sulphate to add to change the ratio to 3:1

volume = 25 litres - thanks

 

[Ghillie]

if my SO4 to chloride ratio is 2:1 then how much magnesium sulphate to add to change the ratio to 3:1

volume = 25 litres - thanks

Plug the relevant profile info into EZ Water Calc and check for yourself. Parameters change with different additions so only you can really answer that.

I can do it for you, but like I said in my post, ratios don't consider quantities. What ppm quantities of sulphates and chlorides do you want? Are you using pure tap water or part diluting with distilled? What grains and what quantities of grains are you using? Are you going to be adjusting mash pH? What are your mash and sparge volumes? Etc...

 

[Hoddy]

Honestly I don't know, but it has been suggested that for the sulphate:chloride ratio to "work" you need a moderate ion content of +50ppm of each sulphate and chloride. Personally I haven't done much experimentation with this, however I did once make a NEIPA with RO water and no added sulphate because I was having the same issue as yourself. It did seem to reduce (but not eliminate) the dry/bitterness I was getting from the hops.

Not very helpful I know, but it might be worth upping the sulphate to 50ppm and then increasing the chloride to 150ppm (a ratio of 0.33) to see if it's any better.

Interesting, makes me feel better that it's not just me that's a bit confused by this. But thanks for the replay

I think I might have to do some experiments to see how I can over come this or at least understand it better.

 

[chrisbjones202]

Hi Steve,

I’m going to make European Lager from Greg Hughes book and sourced some RO yesterday to dilute my water with (have some crs and lactic and salts).
My water is 125ppm alkalinity caco3
85 Ca
9.9 Mg
53.9Na
125 So4
74.6 Cl

What ratio would you reccomend diluting to to start and would you use crs or lactic to bring alkalinity down below say 30?

 

[barlyes]

Hi Steve have been trying to get my head around all this water and all have a Question on it all

additions would look like for 60liters brewing a hop forward IPA without being overly bitter something like a 2/1ratio
cheers George

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve,

I’m going to make European Lager from Greg Hughes book and sourced some RO yesterday to dilute my water with (have some crs and lactic and salts).
My water is 125ppm alkalinity caco3
85 Ca
9.9 Mg
53.9Na
125 So4
74.6 Cl

What ratio would you reccomend diluting to to start and would you use crs or lactic to bring alkalinity down below say 30?

Hi, sorry I've only just saw this post so apologies if it's too late.

Using a 2:1 ratio of RO to tap will reduce everything to a third of what it currently is (not exactly a third technically but close enough).

So that will give you something like this:
45 ppm alkalinity
30 ppm calcium
45 ppm sulphate
25 ppm chloride

For small adjustments I prefer lactic acid, 0.04 ml/L will reduce alkalinity to about 25 ppm and a little pinch of calcium chloride, 0.07 g/L will bring the calcium up to about 50 ppm which is fine for a lager.

This will also bring the chloride up to about 60 ppm or so giving a ratio of 0.75 which sounds about right to me.

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve have been trying to get my head around all this water and all have a Question on it all

additions would look like for 60liters brewing a hop forward IPA without being overly bitter something like a 2/1ratio
cheers George

Hi George, it's not really possible to answer that with any sort of accuracy without knowing what's in your water to begin with.

For an IPA you generally want low alkalinity (35 ppm or lower depending on the grain bill), calcium of 100 ppm as a minimum, and a fairly high sulphate content (maybe 200 or more). But unless you know your baseline it's only guesswork.

Have you looked at the beginners thread, it's a better place to start?

 

[barlyes]

Hi George, it's not really possible to answer that with any sort of accuracy without knowing what's in your water to begin with.

For an IPA you generally want low alkalinity (35 ppm or lower depending on the grain bill), calcium of 100 ppm as a minimum, and a fairly high sulphate content (maybe 200 or more). But unless you know your baseline it's only guesswork.

Have you looked at the beginners thread, it's a better place to start?

 

[barlyes]

Thanks Steve For replying i forgot to say that am using R/O water and would like to brew an a IPA around a 3to 1 ratio off the Ca and sulfate what would you think the salts additions be for say a 30 to 60liters be
cheers George

 

[barlyes]

Hi Steve me again i have added a Brew Water xls that i have played around with to see what you think and if i am on the right track
thanks Steve
me

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve me again i have added a Brew Water xls that i have played around with to see what you think and if i am on the right track
thanks Steve
me

Doesn't look too bad, although the sulphate is a bit higher than I would use. That's just personal taste though, lots of people enjoy high sulphate levels.

One thing I would suggest is perhaps replacing 10% of the RO water with tap water. That way you're still getting some trace elements in there which are probably beneficial to yeast health without messing up the mineral profile too much.

 

[barlyes]

Cheers Steve agreat help and a big load of my mind not knowing if am on the right track or not
will be giving what you have suggested on my next brew day ,but first going to wait untill
my other one is ready as i used your first post on the beginners post and must say you have some good threads on the matter
thank so much
me

 

[chrisbjones202]

Hi, sorry I've only just saw this post so apologies if it's too late.

Using a 2:1 ratio of RO to tap will reduce everything to a third of what it currently is (not exactly a third technically but close enough).

So that will give you something like this:
45 ppm alkalinity
30 ppm calcium
45 ppm sulphate
25 ppm chloride

For small adjustments I prefer lactic acid, 0.04 ml/L will reduce alkalinity to about 25 ppm and a little pinch of calcium chloride, 0.07 g/L will bring the calcium up to about 50 ppm which is fine for a lager.

This will also bring the chloride up to about 60 ppm or so giving a ratio of 0.75 which sounds about right to me.

Thanks Steve,
I actually didn’t get round to brewing it (family time intervened and been away for a few days hence the late reply). Hope to brew it in the next few weeks to lager in the cold garage.

I’m also going to make a Leffe type clone (the Mrs is a fan), would you use a similar profile?

 

[strange-steve]

I’m also going to make a Leffe type clone (the Mrs is a fan), would you use a similar profile?

I'd probably use something similar but raise the calcium to around 100ppm.