More Advanced Water Treatment

[BeerisGOD]

Ok well how about something like:

Calcium 145
Sulphate 220
Chloride 76
Alkalinity 20
Ratio 2.9

Which you could get by adding 0.25g/L gypsum, 0.1g/L calcium chloride and 0.2ml/L CRS.

steve, can you get me a link to the cheapest of these powders? I looked on ebay but like most new things you buy regarding beer its nice to know the best and most reasonable supplier.
cheers

 

[strange-steve]

steve, can you get me a link to the cheapest of these powders? I looked on ebay but like most new things you buy regarding beer its nice to know the best and most reasonable supplier.
cheers

I normally just add them when ordering ingredients online, GEB, HBC and Maltmiller all sell them. However I have bought them off eBay in the past, it's a little more expensive but your still only looking at a few quid, 100g of calcium chloride here for £1.79 and 200g of gypsum here for £3.

 

[BeerisGOD]

I normally just add them when ordering ingredients online, GEB, HBC and Maltmiller all sell them. However I have bought them off eBay in the past, it's a little more expensive but your still only looking at a few quid, 100g of calcium chloride here for £1.79 and 200g of gypsum here for £3.

sounds ok considering ive heard only teaspoons being used. cheers!

 

[strange-steve]

Yeah you only need a few grams per batch. Try a couple of flakes of calcium chloride in your coffee also, really good.

 

[Hoddy]

Hey @strange-steve i am after some advice /confirmation on a new recipe i have been formulating to try and improve my NEIPA recipe designs.

Here where i am at

Source water:
Alkalinity 145
Chloride (ppm) 12
Sulphate (ppm) 12
Calcium (ppm) 48

Target Water Profile (NEIPA)
Alkalinity 20
Chloride (ppm) 175
Sulphate (ppm) 90
Calcium (ppm) 100

Grain Bill
5.2Kg Extra Pale MO (2.4 L)
650g Golden Naked Oats
250g Flaked Wheat Malt

Water corrections
Batch size 30 litres
CRS 20 ml (target mash ph 5.3)
Gypsum 3g
Cal Chlor 8g

Corrected Water
Alkalinity 20.5
Chloride (ppm)185.5
Sulphate (ppm) 128.1
Calcium (ppm)141.1

s/c ratio 0.7 (malty)

I guess i am looking for some guidance on confirmation of where i am and if i am missing something based on maximum dose rates or if there is an alternative/less additive way of achieving the same result. If you could give me your thoughts it would be appreciated.

Update : - Or exactly as @dan125 pointed out could that be adjusted to 1g gypsum & 5g calc choride to finish with 100ppm calcium & the same s/c ratio??

You know your nailed on for a bottle of the resultant beer :cheers9:

 

[BeerisGOD]

Think hes gonna have to start charging us at this rate. One way beer testers maybe

 

[Braindead]

I use
Ca = 100
Mg = 5
Na = 13
Sulfate = 147
Chloride = 80
Bicarbonate = 16

But testing out a 1:1 ratio of sulphate and chloride, at 120ppm each. For a thicker mouthfeel next brew

 

[dan125]

Update : - Or exactly as @dan125 pointed out could that be adjusted to 1g gypsum & 5g calc choride to finish with 100ppm calcium & the same s/c ratio??

I went down to an s/c ratio of 0.5 in my last neipa and this worked well for mouthfeel and the juicy character

 

[Hoddy]

I went down to an s/c ratio of 0.5 in my last neipa and this worked well for mouthfeel and the juicy character

So actually that’s an even better point. How could I achieve a s/c of 0.5 without creating a mineral taste? That’s where this NEIPA style is really quite tricky. Is going the RO water route and then treating better?

 

[dan125]

So actually that’s an even better point. How could I achieve a s/c of 0.5 without creating a mineral taste? That’s where this NEIPA style is really quite tricky. Is going the RO water route and then treating better?

I don't know about the RO as I've never used it, but think you'd need to add other salts as well as gypsum and c. chlor. ???
If you diluted your source water with 10L Tesco Ashbeck you could use;

13.5ml AMS
1g gypsum
6g calc chlor

to acheive somewhere around

20 alk
96ppm Calcium
71ppm sulphate
139ppm chloride
s/c ratio - 0.5

 

[Hoddy]

I don't know about the RO as I've never used it, but think you'd need to add other salts as well as gypsum and c. chlor. ???
If you diluted your source water with 10L Tesco Ashbeck you could use;

13.5ml AMS
1g gypsum
6g calc chlor

to acheive somewhere around

20 alk
96ppm Calcium
71ppm sulphate
139ppm chloride
s/c ratio - 0.5

Yeah that’s what I meant.

That.

Hmmm interesting. It would appear that Chlor part of the profile might not be achievable. But the s/c is as you’ve shown @dan125

 

[dan125]

Yeah that’s what I meant.

That.

Hmmm interesting. It would appear that Chlor part of the profile might not be achievable. But the s/c is as you’ve shown @dan125

Let us know what you go with - I'm gonna use a 0.5 ratio again in my NEAPA at the weekend

 

[Ajhutch]

I've started trying to compare the water adjustment spreadsheets from Bru'n water and from John Palmer on the How To Brew website. So far as I can understand, Bru'n Water recommends adding gypsum and/or calcium chloride to both mash and sparge water, whereas Palmer seems to only add these to mash water.

Both spreadsheets are giving me similar additions to the mash water and to acidify the sparge water, so I'm confident I'm using them correctly. This seems therefore to be an intended difference.

Does anyone have experience of using both of these tools? And have an opinion on which approach is better? For what it's worth, I would tend to think we would want to add the salts to sparge water as we want the calcium, chloride and sulphate levels to be in the final wort not just in the mash.

 

[strange-steve]

@Hoddy
Sorry for the delay!
By my calculations, the following additions:
1.5g gypsum
4.5g calcium chloride
21ml CRS

Will give you the following profile (including mineral additions from CRS):
100 calcium
135 chloride
70 sulphate
0.52 ratio

Which doesn't look half bad for a NEIPA.

 

[strange-steve]

I use
Ca = 100
Mg = 5
Na = 13
Sulfate = 147
Chloride = 80
Bicarbonate = 16

But testing out a 1:1 ratio of sulphate and chloride, at 120ppm each. For a thicker mouthfeel next brew

Try reversing your sulphate and chloride ratio to about 0.5, you might find that even better.

 

[Hoddy]

@Hoddy
Sorry for the delay!
By my calculations, the following additions:
1.5g gypsum
4.5g calcium chloride
21ml CRS

Will give you the following profile (including mineral additions from CRS):
100 calcium
135 chloride
70 sulphate
0.52 ratio

Which doesn't look half bad for a NEIPA.

Hey @strange-steve thanks for getting back. Is that based on using 10L of ash beck or just straight tap water? (I haven’t got my pc to hand to check on my SS)

 

[strange-steve]

Hey @strange-steve thanks for getting back. Is that based on using 10L of ash beck or just straight tap water? (I haven’t got my pc to hand to check on my SS)

That was based on your source water profile mentioned above:
Source water:
Alkalinity 145
Chloride (ppm) 12
Sulphate (ppm) 12
Calcium (ppm) 48

 

[Hoddy]

That was based on your source water profile mentioned above:
Source water:
Alkalinity 145
Chloride (ppm) 12
Sulphate (ppm) 12
Calcium (ppm) 48

Cool. That's quite a clever way of getting to the target.

I wouldn't have thought of going so high on the CRS. What is the max dose rate until you start seeing flavour affects.

 

[strange-steve]

I wouldn't have thought of going so high on the CRS. What is the max dose rate until you start seeing flavour affects.

That was a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation, so more specifically, if you want to reduce the alkalinity to 20 ppm then about 19.7 ml in 30L will do the trick. The clever thing about CRS is that the only things it adds to the water (after reacting with bicarbonate) are chloride and sulphate, both of which are generally desirable and already present in tap water. So the maximum dosage is dependant on the maximum amount of chloride/sulphate you'd like in your water. A rate of 21 ml per 30 L (0.7ml/L) is perfectly fine and unlikely to have much of a flavour effect.

 

[private4587]

Steve I am about to brew a TT Best bitter, could look over my water profile and offer any suggestions please