More Advanced Water Treatment

[strange-steve]

There's a nice neat looking little RO system on eBay for £46, looks very similar to the one I use. I installed it under my kitchen sink and I love it.

 

[shepp]

There's a nice neat looking little RO system on eBay for �£46, looks very similar to the one I use. I installed it under my kitchen sink and I love it.

Steve, How long would it take to process 30 litres, how many litres can it process between filter changes and how much water would it use to process 30 litres.

 

[strange-steve]

Steve, How long would it take to process 30 litres, how many litres can it process between filter changes and how much water would it use to process 30 litres.

I'm not an expert on these by any means, but if you get a TDS meter it'll tell you when the filters are no longer functioning properly. With moderate TDS tap water, a set of filters should last quite a while, especially if you're only using it now and again for brewing. Mine collects about 10L/hour of processed water, though my water pressure is quite high. I've never actually measured the wastewater, but afaik a ratio of 5:1 waste to RO is fairly typical so they are quite wasteful. However the waste is perfectly safe if you collect it in a holding tank of some sort and have another use for it.

 

[dan125]

Well that's exactly why I'm not a fan of CRS, a reduction of 100ppm alkalinity using CRS adds about 70ppm chloride and 100ppm sulphate which is a lot and should be taken into consideration. I prefer lactic acid or acid malt. But I think if your tap water has a high alkalinity, say 200+, you are much better going down the route of dilution rather than using acids.

I'm going to try diluting with ashbeck for Sundays brew, but am having a bit of brain fart with the calculations.
How do I calulate alkalinity of the ashbeck from the bicarbonate please? Or is bicarbonate in mg/l same as alkalinty in ppm?

 

[strange-steve]

I'm going to try diluting with ashbeck for Sundays brew, but am having a bit of brain fart with the calculations.
How do I calulate alkalinity of the ashbeck from the bicarbonate please? Or is bicarbonate in mg/l same as alkalinty in ppm?

No not the same. Alkalinity=bicarbonate x 0.83
So for Ashbeck it's about 21 then. And I'm sure you know ppm and mg/l are the same :thumb:

 

[dan125]

No not the same. Alkalinity=bicarbonate x 0.83
So for Ashbeck it's about 21 then. And I'm sure you know ppm and mg/l are the same :thumb:

Thanks Steve :thumb: I'll have a play with some dilution rates today

 

[shepp]

Cheers Steve, I was thinking similar, last time I did an IPA I just added CRS to my 190 Alk tap water then Gypsum and Epsom Salts according to the Forum Old Water Calculator.
It definitely tasted of minerals. So when I did my saison I halved the amount of Gypsum and added no Epsom Salts and it came out really good.
Last night I worked out my numbers using lactic acid for my 20 litre mash and CRS to my 12 litre sparge, with Gypsum additions to both according to your chart.
Hopefully it will work out.

I have decided to go for 6.8 ml of lactic acid in my 20 litre mash water and 12 litres of Ashbeck for my sparge water.
Adding 3.1 g of gypsum divided between mash and sparge water.
This gives
Sulphate 104 mgL
Chloride 42 mgL
Calcium 74 mgL
Ratio of 2.5 Bitter

I may even go with a little more gypsum, not decided yet.

 

[strange-steve]

I have decided to go for 6.8 ml of lactic acid in my 20 litre mash water and 12 litres of Ashbeck for my sparge water.
Adding 3.1 g of gypsum divided between mash and sparge water.
This gives
Sulphate 104 mgL
Chloride 42 mgL
Calcium 74 mgL
Ratio of 2.5 Bitter

I may even go with a little more gypsum, not decided yet.

That looks pretty perfect to me, personally I wouldn't bother with any more gypsum :thumb:

 

[dan125]

So if my spreadsheet formula skills are up to scratch I've worked out:

37L water (22L tap + 15L Ashbeck)
+ 21ml AMS
+ 5g Gypsum

Should leave me with:

15 alkalinity
93 calcium
156 sulphate
66 chloride
(ratio 2.36)

The ratio looks better than I was getting using all tap water, using much less acid & less total minerals.

:

 

[dan125]

All went well with my diluting brew day, but using only the narrow range test stips I have the mash ph still seemed a point or 2 high.
I think you mentioned you use acid malt @strange-steve - do you find it brings down ph by 0.1 for every 1% added as it mentions on the malt miller's description??

 

[shepp]

All went well with my diluting brew day, but using only the narrow range test stips I have the mash ph still seemed a point or 2 high.
I think you mentioned you use acid malt @strange-steve - do you find it brings down ph by 0.1 for every 1% added as it mentions on the malt miller's description??

If you are thinking of using acid malt, why not just use lactic acid?

 

[dan125]

If you are thinking of using acid malt, why not just use lactic acid?

Good question - I was just thinking it would be easy to add a % or 2 to bring the ph down a touch. Could use lactic acid though.
Wishing I had a ph meter now.

 

[shepp]

Good question - I was just thinking it would be easy to add a % or 2 to bring the ph down a touch. Could use lactic acid though.
Wishing I had a ph meter now.

I have a cheap Chinese one, works well enough.

 

[strange-steve]

So if my spreadsheet formula skills are up to scratch I've worked out:

37L water (22L tap + 15L Ashbeck)
+ 21ml AMS
+ 5g Gypsum

Should leave me with:

15 alkalinity
93 calcium
156 sulphate
66 chloride
(ratio 2.36)

The ratio looks better than I was getting using all tap water, using much less acid & less total minerals.

:

Sorry for the delay, had a busy few days. Your calculations are spot on except you haven't accounted for the sulphate and chloride increase from the AMS, probably about 100ppm sulphate and 70ppm chloride.
As for your pH, those paper strips are as good as useless for measuring mash pH so I wouldn't go by what they tell you.
I've only just got my pH meter so I will report back on the acid malt, but I have it in good authority that 0.1pH per 1% is pretty accurate.

 

[strange-steve]

If you are thinking of using acid malt, why not just use lactic acid?

Indeed you can just add lactic acid, though from what I've heard acid malt adds more to the beer than just the acid, it adds a slight additional complexity. Tbh I don't know if that's true, I've never done a side by side comparison.

 

[dan125]

Sorry for the delay, had a busy few days. Your calculations are spot on except you haven't accounted for the sulphate and chloride increase from the AMS, probably about 100ppm sulphate and 70ppm chloride.
As for your pH, those paper strips are as good as useless for measuring mash pH so I wouldn't go by what they tell you.
I've only just got my pH meter so I will report back on the acid malt, but I have it in good authority that 0.1pH per 1% is pretty accurate.

Could your AMS be different? Or maybe my maths is crap again??
I used 21ml AMS in 37L water = just under 6ml/10L,
Which, according to the MM fact sheet, adds
39ppm Chloride
54ppm Sulphate

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=388

 

[Ajhutch]

Grateful if you could check my maths here. I'm going to brew a Belgian Dubbel, and given you Steve clearly know what you're doing, I figured I'd use the water profile from your Westvleteren XII clone as my target. So if use Ashbeck water, I get:

Component - Ashbeck content - Target

Bicarbonate - 25 - 25
Calcium - 10 - 107
Sulphate - 10 - 71
Chloride - 12 - 148

I'll make no adjustment to bicarbonate and am looking to add approx 100ppm of calcium, 60ppm of sulphate and 140ppm of chloride.

I'd add 0.1g/l of gypsum, giving me 56ppm sulphate and 23ppm calcium

Then I'd add 0.3g/l of calcium chloride, giving me 145ppm chloride and 81ppm calcium (total 104ppm after the gypsum)

Have I got this about right?

 

[shepp]

Steve, the table printed on the first page, whereabouts would you put wheat beer.
Is it balanced ratio?

 

[strange-steve]

Could your AMS be different? Or maybe my maths is crap again??
I used 21ml AMS in 37L water = just under 6ml/10L,
Which, according to the MM fact sheet, adds
39ppm Chloride
54ppm Sulphate

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=388

It seems you're right, I was getting info on the mineral content of AMS from somewhere else, so apologies for that

 

[strange-steve]

Grateful if you could check my maths here. I'm going to brew a Belgian Dubbel, and given you Steve clearly know what you're doing, I figured I'd use the water profile from your Westvleteren XII clone as my target. So if use Ashbeck water, I get:

Component - Ashbeck content - Target

Bicarbonate - 25 - 25
Calcium - 10 - 107
Sulphate - 10 - 71
Chloride - 12 - 148

I'll make no adjustment to bicarbonate and am looking to add approx 100ppm of calcium, 60ppm of sulphate and 140ppm of chloride.

I'd add 0.1g/l of gypsum, giving me 56ppm sulphate and 23ppm calcium

Then I'd add 0.3g/l of calcium chloride, giving me 145ppm chloride and 81ppm calcium (total 104ppm after the gypsum)

Have I got this about right?

I reckon that'll work fine :thumb: