Declining bitter.

[NormanHurst]

I've just been in a Greene King pub in Manchester. 2 GK beers on plus Black Sheep Bitter and TT Landlord. I had to try both. Black Sheep won on tonight's showing.

On the theme of marketing / nomenclature, the Black Sheep was advertised as a Bitter. Landlord was a Pale Ale.

 

[foxy]

So, who likes a really good bitter beer then? IBU bitterness that is. Because I understand what he is going at in the article, and the Belgian beers I brew have mostly a high bitterness, and I find that pleasant. I did brew an English style bitter too (maybe a tad too strong at 6.2%), something like an ESB I think, and it got reasonably bitter.

I do like the higher IBU, but it depends where the brewer is getting the calculated IBU's from.
I get some ridiculous figures using the Brewers Friend calculator so I always check a more reliable source, especially when upping the ante on the IBU front (60 to 80 IBU)

As shown here IBU Tinseth is shown as 51.2! Which then will determine that this is not to style (25-40). The IBU for this recipe is actually 27.9 Tinseth, and 27 on another calculator.
Craft beers following the American trend are fine if you like them. I did like them at one stage but just got sick of them. Good earthy English hops where the bitterness comes through and stays on the palate, verifying why the beer is known as "Bitter"

 

[Sadfield]

Except modern 'Bitter' isn't that bitter. Considerably less so than the Pale Ales that preceded it, and also modern American craft pale ales. It isn't really a style, it was just a 19th century slang way drinkers used to ask for a Pale Ale (heavily hopped keeping beer) beer that wasn't mild (not Mild), meaning fresh, which at the time could also be pale in colour. A modern 'Bitter' recipe would likely have been a mild in those times, being drunk fresh from the brewery and not heavily hopped.

Even the BJCP don't have Ordinary Bitter as being that bitter. The guide being 25-35 ibus, versus New England IPA being 25-60 or German Pilsner at 22-40.

Where have all the bitters gone? They never really existed, as Bitter is a misnoner.

 

[foxy]

Except modern 'Bitter' isn't that bitter. Considerably less so than the Pale Ales that preceded it, and also modern American craft pale ales. It isn't really a style, it was just a 19th century slang way drinkers used to ask for a Pale Ale (heavily hopped keeping beer) beer that wasn't mild (not Mild), meaning fresh, which at the time could also be pale in colour. A modern 'Bitter' recipe would likely have been a mild in those times, being drunk fresh from the brewery and not heavily hopped.

Even the BJCP don't have Ordinary Bitter as being that bitter. The guide being 25-35 ibus, versus New England IPA being 25-60 or German Pilsner at 22-40.

Something we will never know is the IBU of 19th, even half of the 20th century as it wasn't measured. IBU didn't come into being until the 20th century. How hops were stored back in the days of yore they would lose half of the bittering power by the time most were used from the harvest.
My English IPA is 79.2, my Golden bitter 75.8, the Bass pale ale 51.2 but in reality are nowhere near that. That is what Brewers Friend predict.

 

[Sadfield]

Most homebrew isn't measure either, the various calculators can be applied retrospectively and hopping rates can be observed and compared.

I wouldn't make that assumption on hop storage either. Bales of hops will behave differently to 100g packets and the UK is pretty cold during their first 6 months of storage. Perhaps take a look at how Harveys brewery handle their hops today, I'm not seeing much vac packing and freezing.

 

[foxy]

Most homebrew isn't measure either, the various calculators can be applied retrospectively and hopping rates can be observed and compared.

I wouldn't make that assumption on hop storage either. Bales of hops will behave differently to 100g packets and the UK is pretty cold during their first 6 months of storage. Perhaps take a look at how Harveys brewery handle their hops today, I'm not seeing much vac packing and freezing.

I am talking about hop storage in the 19th century.

 

[Clarence]

I do like the higher IBU, but it depends where the brewer is getting the calculated IBU's from.
I get some ridiculous figures using the Brewers Friend calculator so I always check a more reliable source, especially when upping the ante on the IBU front (60 to 80 IBU)

As shown here IBU Tinseth is shown as 51.2! Which then will determine that this is not to style (25-40). The IBU for this recipe is actually 27.9 Tinseth, and 27 on another calculator.
Craft beers following the American trend are fine if you like them. I did like them at one stage but just got sick of them. Good earthy English hops where the bitterness comes through and stays on the palate, verifying why the beer is known as "Bitter"



View attachment 75536

Not a gripe against you, Foxy, but to hell with Tinseth and even more to hell with Dodgy American beer fetishists like Strong and his band of sycophants declaring whether a particular formulation of a British beer is "to style" or not. These guys make me puke, quite frankly. If I want to make a 1045 OG bitter at 60 IBUs according to old and tested ways of calculating bitterness, then a bitter it well and truly is.
There. I feel a lot better now.
Is VB a bitter?

 

[Sadfield]

I am talking about hop storage in the 19th century.

Me too, it won't have been different to what harveys are doing now. Large bales stored at ambient uk temperatures. We're heading to winter, it's hop picking time and the temperature for the next 24 hrs 5-11°C. Large bales of tightly packed hops at low temperature won't deteriorate as much as you think.

 

[Sadfield]

Deep breaths @Clarence. They're guidelines not absolutes. The BJCP often use the word like typically, not must be.

"Our guidelines are descriptive, not proscriptive. That is, they describe similar beers as produced by world class brewers. Our guidelines are not meant to tell those brewers how to brew. As styles evolve, so do the guidelines (not vice versa). We cite commercial examples for our styles to help judges understand how they should taste."

https://www.bjcp.org/faq/styles-are-evil-according-to-a-well-known-brewer/

 

[foxy]

Me too, it won't have been different to what harveys are doing now. Large bales stored at ambient uk temperatures. We're heading to winter, it's hop picking time and the temperature for the next 24 hrs 5-11°C. Large bales of tightly packed hops at low temperature won't deteriorate as much as you think.

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/eej03p6ZUI/

 

[foxy]

Not a gripe against you, Foxy, but to hell with Tinseth and even more to hell with Dodgy American beer fetishists like Strong and his band of sycophants declaring whether a particular formulation of a British beer is "to style" or not. These guys make me puke, quite frankly. If I want to make a 1045 OG bitter at 60 IBUs according to old and tested ways of calculating bitterness, then a bitter it well and truly is.
There. I feel a lot better now.
Is VB a bitter?

No its more a lager. I agree there are better calculators for measuring IBU.
I would also ask how are you measuring your 60 IBU's?

 

[An Ankoù]

Deep breaths @Clarence. They're guidelines not absolutes. The BJCP often use the word like typically, not must be.

I'm with @Clarence on this one, which is not surprising as we often chat and sometimes brew together. Having guidelines is a great resource, but when a brew is declared "not to style" then it becomes an issue of compliance. I can see how it might be applied in a competition or a show, but "competitive" brewing isn't really a British thing as far as I'm aware. Sure, we have "best of the festival" at festivals, but that's not really competition brewing.
I've always thought IBUs a funny old thing, too. Doesn't it depend on the age of the hops, how they've been stored, the mineral content of the water and the actual makeup of the alpha acid content etc? Surely IBUs can't be more than a rule of thumb at most levels.

 

[foxy]

I'm with @Clarence on this one, which is not surprising as we often chat and sometimes brew together. Having guidelines is a great resource, but when a brew is declared "not to style" then it becomes an issue of compliance. I can see how it might be applied in a competition or a show, but "competitive" brewing isn't really a British thing as far as I'm aware. Sure, we have "best of the festival" at festivals, but that's not really competition brewing.
I've always thought IBUs a funny old thing, too. Doesn't it depend on the age of the hops, how they've been stored, the mineral content of the water and the actual makeup of the alpha acid content etc? Surely IBUs can't be more than a rule of thumb at most levels.

No, IBU's can be measured, I have a beer in at Monash Brew Lab waiting to be measured. I used to think that what I considered high IBU are being brewed not to style, why? Because a brewery doesn't have to brew their beers to style. But delving deeper into how the IBU is measured by home brewers I am not so sure.

 

[Sadfield]

I'm really not sure what your point is @foxy. Current UK commercial Bitters aren't more bitter tasting than most other styles of beer. Regardless of IBUs calculations.

@An Ankoù Who's telling you you're beers aren't to style?

 

[foxy]

I'm really not sure what your point is @foxy. Current UK commercial Bitters aren't more bitter tasting than most other styles of beer. Regardless of IBUs calculations.

@An Ankoù Who's telling you you're beers aren't to style?

The point is, home brewers are brewing beers which they think are at the designated IBU when in fact they aren't. How can a forecast IBU on Brewers Friend be so far out to Glen Tinseths IBU forecast?

 

[Agentgonzo]

Surely IBUs can't be more than a rule of thumb at most levels.

. IBU is an artificial concept designed to be a simple model of the complicated science of flavour chemistry. All calculators are, at best, educated guesses based on recipe and process.

Even labs that accurately (how accurate are they in reality? Do they directly measure bitter compounds, or measure something else and then infer bitter compounds from this? I recall something about light diffraction that can be affected by other things too, but I really don't care enough to look and get into an argument over it) measure one specific set of chemicals that contribute to bitterness, but not the complete amount of bitterness that contributes to taste. We are very aware that using different hops with the same AA content will make beers of the same IBU, but can be a very different bitterness (smooth, harsh etc).

IBU (even when accurately measured/quoted) is just a rough yardstick/rule of thumb at the end of the day, but better than nothing. IBU is just a number.

 

[foxy]

. IBU is an artificial concept designed to be a simple model of the complicated science of flavour chemistry. All calculators are, at best, educated guesses based on recipe and process.

Even labs that accurately (how accurate are they in reality? Do they directly measure bitter compounds, or measure something else and then infer bitter compounds from this? I recall something about light diffraction that can be affected by other things too, but I really don't care enough to look and get into an argument over it) measure one specific set of chemicals that contribute to bitterness, but not the complete amount of bitterness that contributes to taste. We are very aware that using different hops with the same AA content will make beers of the same IBU, but can be a very different bitterness (smooth, harsh etc).

IBU (even when accurately measured/quoted) is just a rough yardstick/rule of thumb at the end of the day, but better than nothing. IBU is just a number.

IBU is measured accurately. What isn't measured accurately is perceived bitterness. Which is really impossible to measure as we all have a different threshold of perceived bitterness.
So the only thing we can measure accurately is IBU, the datum which we work to.
It is only a rough yardstick to home brewers using the different calculators available.

 

[Sadfield]

Yes IBU are a crock of **** for homebrewers.

However, the BJCP guidelines are based on commercial examples. The numbers are less unimportant, than the relationship between them. So, comparing Bitter to a NEIPA, to a Lager within the same framework indicates that Bitters aren't more bitter than most other styles. Therefore they aren't called Bitter because of bitterness, in today's market.

And, If we take guidelines to be irrelevant. Where have all the Bitters gone?

 

[foxy]

Yes IBU are a crock of **** for homebrewers.

However, the BJCP guidelines are based on commercial examples. The numbers are less unimportant, than the relationship between them. So, comparing Bitter to a NEIPA, to a Lager within the same framework indicates that Bitters aren't more bitter than most other styles. Therefore they aren't called Bitter because of bitterness, in today's market.

So, where have all the Bitters gone?

They are there, can't speak for the UK but the bitter I get is bittered with Ella hops or Super Pride. And I am sure now it is within the guide lines. It is the measurement that home brewers use which is out of kilter.

 

[Clarence]

When I were but a wee lad, I only remember there being one bottled bitter and that was Whitbread English Ale Stock Bitter. I've always understood that bitter was keg or cask and the bottled equivalent was pale ale. Is this the case or was I brought up badly.