Control panel help please.

[hughjamton]

I'm going to upgrade my brewing experience by moving away from my kettle elements in a plastic fv biab which will become my HLT to a 50ltr s/s mash/boil pot, brew in a basket.
All under the watchful eye of a control panel.
I'll be brewing in the garage, as oppose to outside the garage, and I'm limited to 3kw.
I want to install a switch that will stop me accidentally having the hlt and boiler on at the same time.
The boiler element is 3 1kw elements in one, all will be separately controlled, one by an inkbird to control the mash temperature, one by a voltage controller and one will be on or off.
The insulated hlt will be on a timer controlling another inkbird to turn it on for an early start.
Here's the question (at last).
Can I put the switch between the inkbird and the SSR that will make sure I can't use the elements on both pots at the same time but still monitor the temp through the inkbird?
Eventually I think I'll go over to a herms system utilising another 32ltr pot I have.

 

[Gerryjo]

I'm going to upgrade my brewing experience by moving away from my kettle elements in a plastic fv biab which will become my HLT to a 50ltr s/s mash/boil pot, brew in a basket.
All under the watchful eye of a control panel.
I'll be brewing in the garage, as oppose to outside the garage, and I'm limited to 3kw.
I want to install a switch that will stop me accidentally having the hlt and boiler on at the same time.
The boiler element is 3 1kw elements in one, all will be separately controlled, one by an inkbird to control the mash temperature, one by a voltage controller and one will be on or off.
The insulated hlt will be on a timer controlling another inkbird to turn it on for an early start.
Here's the question (at last).
Can I put the switch between the inkbird and the SSR that will make sure I can't use the elements on both pots at the same time but still monitor the temp through the inkbird?
Eventually I think I'll go over to a herms system utilising another 32ltr pot I have.

That just seems like a complication not needed with 3 in 1 element under 3 controls and a HLT that you haven't rated it's output power.
Why not use a simple PID controller and an on/off switch after the relay to control the element in the HLT.

 

[hughjamton]

That just seems like a complication not needed with 3 in 1 element under 3 controls and a HLT that you haven't rated it's output power.
Why not use a simple PID controller and an on/off switch after the relay to control the element in the HLT.

To be honest what I'm trying to do is not what I originally planned!
I was going to just have the 3 part element with a voltage controller to one of the elements and on/ off switches to the others.
This would give me variable power up to 3kw which I would manually control.
Then I thought it would be a good idea to have a pid to control one of the elements during the mash, so I ordered an inkbird, but I was sent a rex by mistake.
They let me keep the rex and sent me the inkbird.
Whilst waiting for other bits to arrive I got bored and made a project box from scrap wood and cut holes for both pid's half a dozen switches, and fans.
So that's where I am at the moment, and I'm still waiting for some bits.
I know that if it's possible to turn the HLT and the boiler on at the same time I will eventually do it, so I need to make it impossible.
I was going to start one of the kettle elements in the HLT with a timer (the say they are between 2000kw and 2200kw) in the morning so the waters hot when I get up.
So I need to switch the power from the HLT to the boiler but keep the power on all the time to the pumps and both pid's so I can see the temps in both vessels.
I won't get quite enough in the HLT for the full brew but I could top it up with another 10ltrs or so and bring it up to temp using the other kettle element on an extension lead from the kitchen circuit.
It's insulated really well and will easily hold the temp until the sparge.
It's a bit of faffing and I will alter it to a herms system.
The 3 1 kw elements can be connected together to make a 3kw element that the pid will control and I'll put a 2 kw washing machine element and a coil in a 32ltr brupacks mash tun that I already have, but not yet.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

possible to turn the HLT and the boiler on at the same time I will eventually do it, so I need to make it impossible.

Very sensible, otherwise as you say you’ll eventually do it...

Can I put the switch between the inkbird and the SSR that will make sure I can't use the elements on both pots at the same time but still monitor the temp through the inkbird?

Yes (if I understand you correctly) you could disconnect the SSR from the PID controller while still leaving it running so you can check the temperature :-)

 

[Gerryjo]

To be honest what I'm trying to do is not what I originally planned!
I was going to just have the 3 part element with a voltage controller to one of the elements and on/ off switches to the others.
This would give me variable power up to 3kw which I would manually control.
Then I thought it would be a good idea to have a pid to control one of the elements during the mash, so I ordered an inkbird, but I was sent a rex by mistake.
They let me keep the rex and sent me the inkbird.
Whilst waiting for other bits to arrive I got bored and made a project box from scrap wood and cut holes for both pid's half a dozen switches, and fans.
So that's where I am at the moment, and I'm still waiting for some bits.
I know that if it's possible to turn the HLT and the boiler on at the same time I will eventually do it, so I need to make it impossible.
I was going to start one of the kettle elements in the HLT with a timer (the say they are between 2000kw and 2200kw) in the morning so the waters hot when I get up.
So I need to switch the power from the HLT to the boiler but keep the power on all the time to the pumps and both pid's so I can see the temps in both vessels.
I won't get quite enough in the HLT for the full brew but I could top it up with another 10ltrs or so and bring it up to temp using the other kettle element on an extension lead from the kitchen circuit.
It's insulated really well and will easily hold the temp until the sparge.
It's a bit of faffing and I will alter it to a herms system.
The 3 1 kw elements can be connected together to make a 3kw element that the pid will control and I'll put a 2 kw washing machine element and a coil in a 32ltr brupacks mash tun that I already have, but not yet.

I can see what you're trying to do but you are over complicating a simple setup which you have at hand.
With the PID you already have voltage control as you can regulate the power percentage on this with the manual override which also allows you to monitor the temperature without turning on the output.
The three elements in this case I would use as one as this will reduce your switch gear and simplify your setup.
I'm not knocking what your doing I'm just saying that it's over complicated from what I can visage.
Put a schematic together of both setups to see the difference.

 

[emerson909]

I'm going to upgrade my brewing experience by moving away from my kettle elements in a plastic fv biab which will become my HLT to a 50ltr s/s mash/boil pot, brew in a basket.
All under the watchful eye of a control panel.
I'll be brewing in the garage, as oppose to outside the garage, and I'm limited to 3kw.
I want to install a switch that will stop me accidentally having the hlt and boiler on at the same time.
The boiler element is 3 1kw elements in one, all will be separately controlled, one by an inkbird to control the mash temperature, one by a voltage controller and one will be on or off.
The insulated hlt will be on a timer controlling another inkbird to turn it on for an early start.
Here's the question (at last).
Can I put the switch between the inkbird and the SSR that will make sure I can't use the elements on both pots at the same time but still monitor the temp through the inkbird?
Eventually I think I'll go over to a herms system utilising another 32ltr pot I have.

You can have a switch to select the element but for safety you should switch the 240v via relays, there is a design here;

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1
I built the same on my control panel although I went biab in the end so only use 1 element

 

[hughjamton]

You can have a switch to select the element but for safety you should switch the 240v via relays, there is a design here;

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1
I built the same on my control panel although I went biab in the end so only use 1 element

That's some reading!!
I'll have to do it again to sink in.
I'm not questioning the rights or wrongs, it's that I don't understand all of it so bear with me.
They use 2 x 5.5kw elements, I will have 1 @ 2kw and 1 @ 3kw

All of my switches are a minimum of 16 amps.
I will have a switch that will turn off the power to the ssr of the 2kw hlt element.
Both elements will then be off.
With the same switch I will then turn power on to the ssr of the 3kw boiler element.
Both elements will be controlled by pid's.
My Kitchen kettle is 3kw, it just turns on with a normal switch (no relay)
Now, I'm a great believer in "just because people do, it doesn't make it right"
But I've looked on youtube, a lot, and most don't seem to use relay's unless they're using the bigger elements.

Do I really need relays?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

A properly-rated switches will be fine - just make sure that everything is well insulated (obviously), earth all exposed metalwork and use good thick cable.
For my heaters I use 2.5mm conductor; something marked '3093Y' is ideal as it is designed to withstand higher temperatures.

I used this stuff:

Were you planning to use connectors? If so, something like the 'commando' type ones are good.

 

[Gerryjo]

That's some reading!!
I'll have to do it again to sink in.
I'm not questioning the rights or wrongs, it's that I don't understand all of it so bear with me.
They use 2 x 55kw elements, I will have 1 @ 2kw and 1 @ 3kw

All of my switches are a minimum of 16 amps.
I will have a switch that will turn off the power to the ssr of the 2kw hlt element.
Both elements will then be off.
With the same switch I will then turn power on to the ssr of the 3kw boiler element.
Both elements will be controlled by pid's.
My Kitchen kettle is 3kw, it just turns on with a normal switch (no relay)
Now, I'm a great believer in "just because people do, it doesn't make it right"
But I've looked on youtube, a lot, and most don't seem to use relay's unless they're using the bigger elements.

Do I really need relays?

You'll find that when they are using relays this is to switch between 12/24v which is normally the output signal in most PID/PWM as they don't have the current carrying capacity of switching high current loads so use SELV to bi voltage switching like SSR's to activate the bridge to forward the required voltage output to the load.
Basically put it's like riding a bike with high sprocket in the pedal to smaller sprockets on a large rear wheel.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[hughjamton]

A properly-rated switches will be fine - just make sure that everything is well insulated (obviously), earth all exposed metalwork and use good thick cable.
For my heaters I use 2.5mm conductor; something marked '3093Y' is ideal as it is designed to withstand higher temperatures.

I used this stuff:
View attachment 47646

Were you planning to use connectors? If so, something like the 'commando' type ones are good.

My cable is similar
General Purpose - Butyl Heat Resistant Cables

Application: Storage Heaters and longer runs of low voltage lighting.
Other applications that require flexible heat resistant cable
Can be used in areas where the cable may come into contact with grease or oil.

Current Rating: 25 Amps 2.5mm

And yes, I have commando type connectors.

So far so good then?

 

[hughjamton]

You'll find that when they are using relays this is to switch between 12/24v which is normally the output signal in most PID/PWM as they don't have the current carrying capacity of switching high current loads so use SELV to bi voltage switching like SSR's to activate the bridge to forward the required voltage output to the load.
Basically put it's like riding a bike with high sprocket in the pedal to smaller sprockets on a large rear wheel.
Hope that makes sense.

Do they do that in English? LOL
So I don't need them?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

with cheap PID modules, you can normally get them in different types - some of which are designed to drive a low power relay, and some to drive an SSR... so make sure you know which type you’re getting. Personally I’d recommend the ones that will drive an SSR.
Incidentally I know I‘m like a broken record on the subject of SSRs, but I would very strongly advise you not to use any of them sourced from eBay or Amazon - especially if they are marked ‘Fotek’, as every single one I’ve seen has been rebadged to claim it’s a higher current capacity than it actually is (google for ‘fake Fotec SSRs’ to see some scary pictures). It costs a bit more to get them from RS, Farnell or DigiKey but better safe than sorry IMHO

 

[hughjamton]

with cheap PID modules, you can normally get them in different types - some of which are designed to drive a low power relay, and some to drive an SSR... so make sure you know which type you’re getting. Personally I’d recommend the ones that will drive an SSR.
Incidentally I know I‘m like a broken record on the subject of SSRs, but I would very strongly advise you not to use any of them sourced from eBay or Amazon - especially if they are marked ‘Fotek’, as every single one I’ve seen has been rebadged to claim it’s a higher current capacity than it actually is (google for ‘fake Fotec SSRs’ to see some scary pictures). It costs a bit more to get them from RS, Farnell or DigiKey but better safe than sorry IMHO

I assume the ones that come with the inkbird do what they say on the tin?
The one that has come with the Rex is marked as a Fotek 40amp, the supplier makes a big thing about not buying from other suppliers as they lie about the current capacity, of course i believe him.
I was going to use it on the 2kw hlt, so even if it can only handle a 3rd of what it claims, I would of thought would have been ok?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I was going to use it on the 2kw hlt, so even if it can only handle a 3rd of what it claims, I would of thought would have been ok?

Yes, I should think you’ll be OK - put it on a decent heat sink and run it for a bit with that load, then check it to see how hot it’s got. Normally the Fotek SSRs themselves are pretty decent; it’s just that unscrupulous people buy them up in bulk and then re-label them as higher capacity than they really are. It’s pretty easy to spot them... you’ll find loads about it on the web. All the ones I’ve seen have been like the fake below: the real item is the upper photo, and the fake the lower one

From: Inferior Counterfeit FOTEK SSR-25 Solid State Relays on the Market - ProtoSupplies