Ballihoo equipment, PB pressure, St Peters Ruby Red; looking for advice.

[Jonneyney]

Hello all!

Noob/lurker here.

Just looking for some advice. I have started my first brew of a St Peters Ruby Red, kit. Followed instructions, but listened to advice here on the forum about extending the amount of time in the FV for example. Brew was in FV for approx 2 weeks, kept at 18-20 celsius. All looking ok so far.

Transferred over to PB, primed with 70g of sugar about a week ago, however temps have dropped to around 16 degrees. Gave it a small taste today, bit fruity for me but otherwise quite nice. Still cloudy but hopefully that should clear up in the coming weeks.

However the beer is resoundingly flat, I'm looking to figure out why exactly and what I can do to save the beer.

Attached are some images of the equipment I have. (These are from my second PB, so that is why they are not in-use currently)

The cap has a valve that I can use to top up pressure with Co2 canisters, although as far as I am aware that should only be done once the keg has been drunk somewhat.

Is there anyway I can check if the PSI is correct? How will I know if the sugar is working with the yeast and producing Co2?
I have a PSI tire gauge that apparently I can pop on top of the valve to measure, however this either doesn't fit or I'm not using it right as it seems to do nothing?

Any advice would be appreciated, I've got an IPA in the FV at the moment so I'd like to get this process down.

Thank you in advance!

(PS for the third image, any advice on how to make sure the rubber ring connects to the plastic top properly, it keeps popping out for some reason)

 

[Larse]

Have you any idea of gravity readings at the start and when you kegged?

Also, looks like there was no secondary fermentation in the keg and hence it's flat. Maybe try and get it warmed up a bit first?

What method are you using to add CO2? Are they the small sparklet bulbs or something bigger?

 

[Jonneyney]

Have you any idea of gravity readings at the start and when you kegged?

Also, looks like there was no secondary fermentation in the keg and hence it's flat. Maybe try and get it warmed up a bit first?

What method are you using to add CO2? Are they the small sparklet bulbs or something bigger?

Thanks for the response Larse

As this is my first kit, I foolishly did not take gravity readings (note for next time)

I've now put it somewhere that is closer to 19-20 degrees.

For CO2 I've only added the required sugar, I have this thing below, alongside some CO2 capsules (I have not used these yet)

 

[Rwilts]

70g doesnt sound like enough sugar to carbonate / condition the beer to me, HOWEVER I dont use a PB and the only time I did (many years ago, it failed to hold pressure).

So in furtherance to @Larse good points , i would check the amount of fermentable needed (you might have this right) and also make sure that the PB is well sealed, or all your produced CO2 will leak away and the beer will continue to be flat.

Also just for info the bulbs will only be enough to maintain a serving pressure once the PB is carbonated , they are not enough to carbonate your beer.

All of the above you probably know :)

 

[Larse]

Thanks for the response Larse

As this is my first kit, I foolishly did not take gravity readings (note for next time)

I've now put it somewhere that is closer to 19-20 degrees.

For CO2 I've only added the required sugar, I have this thing below, alongside some CO2 capsules (I have not used these yet)

View attachment 106063

Yeah, those are the sparklets bulbs I mentioned. About 12g of CO2 in each I think.

The problem with those plastic kegs (I used to use them in the distant past) is that there's a lot of headspace in them which takes forever to fill with naturally created CO2 and so I never got decent carbonation in them.

If I were you, I'd probably blast a few of them into the keg to get the pressure up so there's some chance of carbonation.

 

[starseeker]

Have you applied a small amount of vaseline or similar to the sealing ring (both sides) before assembling ? This helps to ensure you have a air tight seal ,

 

[Dazzelknight]

Sounds like u have a leak …. As above .. Vaseline your o’ring,, do not over tighten.. fire in a Co2 bulb.. wipe some washing up liquid and a dash of water round ur seals (top and tap) if no bubbles ur good to go

 

[Gaz_h]

Jonny, I'm relatively new and made about 6 st peters kits....and in all but 2 I've had a problem with flat beer. They don't provide enough priming sugar. Since I upped mine by 50% they've been way better.

I ve also just used my PB for the first time with a St Peters Cream Stout. I've used the same canisters as you have and it's soooo good. You need to pressurise the head space as soon as you've filled it and leave it. You'll be able to tell when it needs a top up after drinking a few pints.

 

[Begbie]

Hi Jonney,

My tuppence worth.

Assuming you're trying to carbonate approximately 21L (having racked off of the primary FV, leaving 1L to 2L of trub), you should have added about 125 - 130g (for 2.4 vols of carbonation, which is what I tend to default to) of sugar rather than 70g.

I used the Brewer's Friend calculator when I was priming with sugar (I now force carbonate my kegs) and it always resulted in good carbonation. Link is below for your quick reference. Hope that's of some help.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

 

[Jonneyney]

Thank you for all the advice.

Just an update: Pressure was reading at 0.0, took off the lid. No pressure whatsoever, okay. It was stored at 16 degrees for a week so perhaps that was too cold? It's been moved somewhere closer to 18-20 now.

Instructions state: "1 carbonation drop per bottle or half a teaspoon of sugar per pint (max. 100g per pressure barrel) (for 23 L)

23L = approx 40 pints

= 20 teaspoons of sugar which is approx 100g

So firstly I hadn't put enough priming sugar in the barrel, I've now put probably 140g overall (take that instructions)
Alongside a canister as Gaz has mentioned above. I poured a pint, it wasn't completely flat and it had a head!

Originally I could read the pressure at around 5.9, it then went down overnight to around 3.5.
Does this mean?

A. There is a leak?

B. CO2 is absorbed by the beer?

C. Both?

I've just poured another pint (I cant help it) and it still needs more carbonation in the beer, but had a head.
Although my psi tire reader thing showed 0.0, so I assume that's not working for some reason.

I didn't realise PB's could be so finicky. I have a St Peters IPA in my FV for another week and another PB waiting.
I'm getting bottling equipment for Christmas, I'm wondering whether to discard the PB's completely and switch to bottling.

 

[Rwilts]

I know some use them but as previously stated I couldn't get on with them. I have kegs And a keezer but majority of my brews get bottled in 500ml PET bottles. Perfect size for storing and sharing..

O and my PB makes a very good bottling bucket , so gets a lot of use .

 

[Gyro]

Try a few wraps of PTFE tape on the threads that the cap screws on to. Not too much, but hopefully it will give the thread on the cap something to bite into. Sometimes the finish is a bit rough and the imperfections are enough to let gas escape.

 

[jof]

As an aside the keg or bottle question sort of depends on how you consume your beer.
I bottle as I generally only have 1 pint a day.
But if you have several, or invite your friends round regularly, then a keg/pressure barrel is probably better.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Biggest risk with PBs is a leaky pressure relief valve, in your case, the white rubber band on the top of the cap. The gas (Schrader) valve can also leak where it is fitted to the cap. As others have said, make sure these areas are not leaking first. Fit the cap, inject some gas and spray the top with soap solution (or Starsan) and look for bubbles….be patient, this can be a slow leak.
If there are no leaks, having primed your beer, put it somewhere warm ~20C and leave it alone for 2 weeks. If at the end of 2 weeks there’s no pressure you do have a leaky cap.

 

[peterpiper]

Hello all!

Noob/lurker here.

Just looking for some advice. I have started my first brew of a St Peters Ruby Red, kit. Followed instructions, but listened to advice here on the forum about extending the amount of time in the FV for example. Brew was in FV for approx 2 weeks, kept at 18-20 celsius. All looking ok so far.

Transferred over to PB, primed with 70g of sugar about a week ago, however temps have dropped to around 16 degrees. Gave it a small taste today, bit fruity for me but otherwise quite nice. Still cloudy but hopefully that should clear up in the coming weeks.

However the beer is resoundingly flat, I'm looking to figure out why exactly and what I can do to save the beer.

Attached are some images of the equipment I have. (These are from my second PB, so that is why they are not in-use currently)

The cap has a valve that I can use to top up pressure with Co2 canisters, although as far as I am aware that should only be done once the keg has been drunk somewhat.

Is there anyway I can check if the PSI is correct? How will I know if the sugar is working with the yeast and producing Co2?
I have a PSI tire gauge that apparently I can pop on top of the valve to measure, however this either doesn't fit or I'm not using it right as it seems to do nothing?

Any advice would be appreciated, I've got an IPA in the FV at the moment so I'd like to get this process down.

Thank you in advance!

(PS for the third image, any advice on how to make sure the rubber ring connects to the plastic top properly, it keeps popping out for some reason)

The temperature drop, when trying to start secondary fermentation, could be your main issue. When the yeast's trying to get going again, maintaining temperature, or increasing by a couple of degrees, can help.
I did the St Peter's Ruby Red, earlier this year, but used a different yeast, as kit was (very) out of date. But still tasted nice.
If warming doesn't get it going again again, you could try a bottling yeast like CBC-1.

Did you loosten the schraeder valve lockring when taking readings. The (usually) knurled brass nut, which you have to loosten maybe 2 or 3 turns CCW (depending on what youre attaching), before taking readings or injecting gas. Tighten CW afterwards, to maintain good seal.

Injecting CO2 into the full batch, can't cause any issues, especially if beer is flat. But you'd need around 2.5 x 16g capsules, to produce same amount of CO2 as fermenting 70g of priming sugar.
Actually, injecting CO2 is a good test, to find if the barrel will hold pressure. If not, then a good secondary ferment, still gives flat beer.

Inject 2x 16g capsules, listen for leaks, and (without retightening schraeder) immediately take a pressure reading. If reading still zero, but tap can now dispense with some pressure, it sounds the guage is faulty.


I use four pressure barrels, a mix of King Keg top taps, & similar types. All with 4inch diameter caps, and fill connectors for S30 (now called S30 equivalent) CO2 cylinders. The 4inch size, lets an arm in when cleaning. And refilled S30 contains 240g CO2, so refill/exchange at around £8, is reasonable value with less waste than 16g bulbs.

I always use 125g priming sugar, per 23L batch (so more than the 99g recommended). But I always take FG reading, to make sure primary ferment is definately over.
The King Keg is around 27L to brim. If your barrel volume is different, keep that in mind.

Immediately ater priming, I usually fill a few bottles, from the barrel. Leaving maybe 19L in the barrel.
When the seals are all good, the carbonation pressure can be a bit lively at first, but still gives a good head right to the last pint. After 5L or so, the dispense carbonation seems about right.
Two of my barrels are always reliable, one usually, and one's often a problem (needing more CO2 every day or two).

The Balihoo 2inch cap looks to have a separate pressure fill & relief valves (it's a combined valve on the King Keg). But I found the relief valves often let off gas, at too low a pressure. So I now double up on the rubber sleeve, to make a tighter fit and hold more pressure (I guess on the Balihoo cap, rubber is the white, surrounding the red spigot).

With a new barrel, or when changing fittings, I always test the seals before any beer goes in.

I do this by filling to bottom of neck with water, then injecting CO2 till the relief just starts releasing gas. But leave more headspace when using bulbs (perhaps 3L), in case bulb releases all of its CO2 at once.

You could take a pressure reading at this point. Open tap to ensure dispense pressure seems reasonable. Then lie barrel on it's side, in bath, and check no water is escaping anywhere around lid or fittings.

Not sure about how to get your seal ring (picture 3), to stay in place. It looks too small. Is it a flat washer (rather than the round o-ring, as used on King Keg etc)?
If you clean off all vaseline/lubricant, will it then stay in place? If so, instead just apply thin smear of lubricant to top surface of barrel neck, so it just lubricates the rubbing surfaces.
Lubricating the thread as well, will make tightening, and removing easier, but that's maybe not such an issue on 2" caps.

I once calculated (but not sure of results):

At atmospheric pressure of 1.01 bar, 1.8g of CO2 fills 1 litre, ie 1.8g/l
An 8g Sparklet gives 4.44 litre of CO2

King Keg is rated 10-12PSI (0.69 - 0.82 atm.)
King Keg is 27l to brim.
So with a 23l fill, theres 4l headspace.

King Keg instructions say use 99g priming sugar (for 19l fill).
99g of fermented sugar produces 43.5g CO2, that's 24.1l at 1atm.
Some of this CO2 is absorbed into solution.

The amount of CO2 dissolved in water is proportional to pressure. At 20C, 1 liter water dissolves about 1.7 g CO2 at pressure (1 atm), 23l water would hold 39.1g.

I did more calculations, but my head was hurting.

 

[homebrewdev]

Maybe those new oxebar kegs be a good start?

I didn't realise PB's could be so finicky. I have a St Peters IPA in my FV for another week and another PB waiting.
I'm getting bottling equipment for Christmas, I'm wondering whether to discard the PB's completely and switch to bottling