My view is the people of this country are sick to death of being lied to and Labour the Libs are no different in that respect, they all lie to get in power
Brexit thread [Poll added]
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Where has Brexit failed? where would like to start?
In Scotland and the north the immediate effect was the removal of EU funding to the most economically deprived areas, this was replaced by the smoke and mirrors of Levelling Up, bid for your regeneration project or in some cases take the funding central government has decided in some cases purchased directly by central government.
Medicines - by taking us out of the EU it had a massive effect on prescription medications as we no longer have access to European stock and have to rely on one factory for certain products leading to massive supply issues.
Immigration - Brexit removed the Dublin Agreement so removed the agreement to to return immigrants to EU member states
Finance - Whilst many will contest this but the most recent estimate is £140 Billion to be cost of Brexit to the UK
European Relations - You do not need to be in politics to see the damage this has done and might be beyond repair
Exactly, I didn't vote but i was leaning towards leave I nearly fell for all the BS we now know was exactly that.
As I have stated on the Election thread Anas Sarwar has been very clear on Labour position Brexit is done the vote stands no going back, he can't take any other position as opens up a double standard on the Scottish Independence issue.
If we are stuck with this mess then least we can do is adopt the Windsor frame UK wide and soften the blow somewhat
If we are stuck with this mess then least we can do is adopt the Windsor frame UK wide and soften the blow somewhat
Agentgonzo
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But all that aside, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Well as I stay near what was the Antonine Wall not so much up here as they never got this far, Antonine Wall was a secondary defence after Hadrians Wall but they abandoned it an retreated south to reinforce Hadrians Wall.But all that aside, what have the Romans ever done for us?
What did they leave behind? roads and paths loads of them on what was rough terrain, Water and sewage aqueducts
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Don't be a wally! Where would we be on Nov 5th if it wasn't for roman candles.But all that aside, what have the Romans ever done for us?
And if we'd had control of our borders in the bronze age, we'd all be Welsh! We'd have sent the Saxons and Jutes packing, deported the Romans back to Romania, stopped the vikings coming over in small boats by threatening them with Rwanda. And as for Willy the Conk!!
Yep. Brexit came several thousand years too late!!
Agree. It is like cheating on exams - once one person starts cheating without a punishment (these are demagogues in politics), they skew the results and old good scores become insufficient, so everyone must start cheating to get at least a chance of winning. And this leads to the end of the unbiased exam
They now fight by promising what the public wants to hear regardless whether their promise is realistic or not - they will blame opposition for not delivering
This has been the prediction for a while now. I remember when BBC Question Time went out from Sunderland about a year ago. Clear opinions from the audience that, having voted leave, they would likely change their vote now given the chance.
To put it in perspective, Sunderland was the second city to declare the referendum results in 2016 with a huge majority to leave.
There was a lot of emphasis on blame being placed with the mis-selling which I half sympathise with. It was mis-sold but, on the other hand, isn't everything political mis-sold so shouldn't we expect it and read between the lines?
The man on the street wants to know end results; will the NHS be better? Will I still be able to to go to Spain on holiday? Whereas we should listen to the boring and less sensationalist economists and investors because stability on the markets underpins all of those end games. It was a decision that we, the general public, were simply ill-equipped to be making.
Agentgonzo
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So what you're essentially saying is "shouldn't we expect politicians to lie to us?"
IMO, no. Because what's the point of the whole system if the expectation is that they lie to us? It's a completely pointless charade
We shouldn't necessarily expect it, but we should accept the possibility. It's happened before. As @dad_of_jon quoted :
I didn't vote in the brexit ref, i just don't vote in anything, if we had another ref i would vote to rejoin but only if it is on full terms which i think they would agree to, us leaving hurt them a lot more than people realise particularly in the money markets
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Quite so. Politicians who gain an advantage through deliberate deceit should be held accountable. Why aren't they? We have a right to believe what we are being told so that we can make informed decisions If we can't do that then we're no better than a banana republic.
In fact banana republics are better of since they don't have to support en endless tribe of foreign royal leeches).
That's fair enough. I voted remain, not because I am some kind of staunch "remainer" but because it was simply a vote not to change anything. I couldn't get enough substantiated evidence to prove to myself, without doubt, that the potential negative ramifications of voting leave were clearly outweighed by the potential benefits.
An Ankoù
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And you were right. That's a perfectly good reason. Shame on those who felt the same, but were too bone idle to get off their collective 'arris and do their civic duty by voting.
I was thinking a bit more about what I meant by this
Mis-selling isn't necessarily lying. Mis-selling can happen through misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the upstream information (potentially unintentionally), or only presenting a subset of the facts (usually the positive ones). So it's entirely possible to mis-sell without strictly lying.
I work for a French company. Right up until 2018, I worked really closely with my French, Polish and Norwegian colleagues.
I could go over there and help them out with joint projects we were doing. They could come to us and do likewise.
It's absolutely bonkers. I can go to India and help my colleagues over there with projects, but not in the EU. To do that, I need to apply for a short-term working visa.
....
That is why I didn't vote both sides lied we now know which lied the most and they are going to find their own voters are not willing to forgive or forget.
Was it misinformation when they said they were going to put hundreds of millions into the NHS on the side of those London busses?
Sorry but when politicians deliberately spread misinformation that they know not to be verified and checked IS lying to public.
very much like tax evasion and tax avoidance, just because you have a flashy accountant and solicitor does not make it any less wrong.
Politicians have a public duty, if they get it wrong then fine hold their hands up but the lies and concealed facts of the Brexit mess are coming to light now and cannot be swept under the carpet.
very much like tax evasion and tax avoidance, just because you have a flashy accountant and solicitor does not make it any less wrong.
Politicians have a public duty, if they get it wrong then fine hold their hands up but the lies and concealed facts of the Brexit mess are coming to light now and cannot be swept under the carpet.
