Brewer's Invert Sugar
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peebee
Out of Control
My attempt to create No.3 Invert Sugar in the oven from golden syrup coming shortly (this post is only to create a link).
Galena
Landlord.
You should probably make a Youtube video series
peebee
Out of Control
Ran out of time for editing that earlier "link" post, so here it is with its own post!
I start by running it through my recipe builder (Beersmith) to give me an idea of where I'm going with it. Even though I've backtracked on the need to get Maillard reactions involved, I'm going to pay lip service to providing conditions for the reactions all the same. This is no hardship, a spot of molasses will provide the needed amino acids (or perhaps DME as @johncrobinson suggested?). I might even put a small pinch of sodium bicarbonate (the syrup is very slightly acid), or maybe not?
So I'll use the contrived recipe (Golden Syrup plus molasses - Post #3) to create No.2 Invert as a base:
About 1% molasses which should be enough (I'm using the widely documented 30EBC for Golden Syrup and a suggestion that Blackstrap is about 2000-2500EBC) which seems to work out about right (1 or 2 EBC lighter than the target 70EBC for No.2 Invert). The diagram above is saying "Tate's Golden Syrup" but I'll be using supermarket own brand, probably created from very refined beet sugar? But I've already poured scorn on this "raw" (molasses) requirement, so adding molasses is entirely up to you (in my opinion).
I want 280g of No.3 Invert so I'll weigh out 276g golden syrup (280x98.8% from calculations in diagram) and 4g blackstrap molasses (280x1.2%) into a clear glass casserole dish (so I can see the colour) and prepare to chuck in oven at 115°C.
You should have seen a problem, and the reason I will not be attempting No.4 Invert. 140EBC (No.3 Invert) is pretty black. I'm not wanting to get involved with comparing shades of "black"! I'll just bake this until its "black" (or "very dark"). Should take about an hour once up to heat (110°C+)? ...
I start by running it through my recipe builder (Beersmith) to give me an idea of where I'm going with it. Even though I've backtracked on the need to get Maillard reactions involved, I'm going to pay lip service to providing conditions for the reactions all the same. This is no hardship, a spot of molasses will provide the needed amino acids (or perhaps DME as @johncrobinson suggested?). I might even put a small pinch of sodium bicarbonate (the syrup is very slightly acid), or maybe not?
So I'll use the contrived recipe (Golden Syrup plus molasses - Post #3) to create No.2 Invert as a base:
About 1% molasses which should be enough (I'm using the widely documented 30EBC for Golden Syrup and a suggestion that Blackstrap is about 2000-2500EBC) which seems to work out about right (1 or 2 EBC lighter than the target 70EBC for No.2 Invert). The diagram above is saying "Tate's Golden Syrup" but I'll be using supermarket own brand, probably created from very refined beet sugar? But I've already poured scorn on this "raw" (molasses) requirement, so adding molasses is entirely up to you (in my opinion).
I want 280g of No.3 Invert so I'll weigh out 276g golden syrup (280x98.8% from calculations in diagram) and 4g blackstrap molasses (280x1.2%) into a clear glass casserole dish (so I can see the colour) and prepare to chuck in oven at 115°C.
You should have seen a problem, and the reason I will not be attempting No.4 Invert. 140EBC (No.3 Invert) is pretty black. I'm not wanting to get involved with comparing shades of "black"! I'll just bake this until its "black" (or "very dark"). Should take about an hour once up to heat (110°C+)? ...
So...the unrefined sugar is best to make invert...would unrefined be better to add where recipes say "add sugar"?
peebee
Out of Control
Not an argument I'm willing to get involved in! For invert sugar; it was (originally) made from "raw", or more accurately "less refined than white", cane sugar. Such would have more flavours, but for Invert the "less refined" also means amino acids present for "Maillard" reactions. How much these reactions provide noticeable flavours over the caramel flavours being created is what I questioned. But I've left that to everyone's own choice, I'm not making recommendations.
scomet
Member
I found this article on the manufacture of Molasses and Blackstrap, neither of which I have used in brewing. I had always thought blackstrap was a cattle /pig food additive! (sugar waste by-product)
It makes interesting comment on the manufacturing process of both sugars.
Molasses - 'Its dark colour and flavour come in part from the caramelisation of fructose and glucose during the cooking process.
Blackstrap - 'With further boiling, molasses can be concentrated even more, allowing thermal decomposition to carbonise its remaining sugars into a black, bitter, and downright salty sludge'
The Difference Between Blackstrap Molasses and True Molasses
I am going to try Molasses in my next Porter, I’m sure it will bring some interesting flavours, but, while not trying to start or get into a pi$$ing contest. IMO 'Brewers Invert' numbers 1 to 4 is made without any caramelisation of the sugars, CHEERS…
It makes interesting comment on the manufacturing process of both sugars.
Molasses - 'Its dark colour and flavour come in part from the caramelisation of fructose and glucose during the cooking process.
Blackstrap - 'With further boiling, molasses can be concentrated even more, allowing thermal decomposition to carbonise its remaining sugars into a black, bitter, and downright salty sludge'
The Difference Between Blackstrap Molasses and True Molasses
I am going to try Molasses in my next Porter, I’m sure it will bring some interesting flavours, but, while not trying to start or get into a pi$$ing contest. IMO 'Brewers Invert' numbers 1 to 4 is made without any caramelisation of the sugars, CHEERS…
Argentum
Regular.
I would think that unrefined would generally work best in beers above a certain EBC color threshold, which I'm not going to guess at, but if adding sugar to keep the color on the light side, or to reduce color, then refined would seemingly have to be favored.
peebee
Out of Control
The terms "molasses" and "blackstrap" refer to different products in different parts of the world. Your article is American and gawd knows what they're talking about! I use "blackstrap" 'cos if I say "molasses" the Americans go out to buy Golden Syrup. You're in Australia, gawd knows what you think either are.
In the UK you can buy "blackstrap" in health food shops. We also (used to?) feed it to pigs.
Blackstrap is dreadful stuff added in large amounts to beer. Makes the beer very lush flavoured, until you eventually figure out all the beers taste the same.
Fructose in Invert sugar caramelises at 110C. You can't avoid it caramelising.
Argentum
Regular.
Golden Syrup is way too expensive for general use by us Americans, and I don't believe I've ever seen it on the shelves of a common supermarket. I've only seen it at gouging prices in brewing supply shops. Invert sugar seems to be pretty much an unknown commodity here.
Molasses from beets is cattle food. Molasses from sugar cane is not.
peebee
Out of Control
That's what I mean. If you want something like golden syrup you buy molasses? Treacle to us is refined (and cut I believe?) molasses - I bet treacle means something else in the states.
There is highly refined and colourless baker's invert sugar (the fructose makes cakes colour better?). Can you get that?
No, apparently replacing sucrose with invert sugar makes a sweeter product that can be kept longer. Also for making ice cream, invert sugar is actually better to use than sucrose.
peebee
Out of Control
I looked at Baker's Invert, but for us in the UK bulk (7+Kg) Tate's Golden Syrup was cheaper and easy to get (e.g. Amazon UK).
Fructore is attributed with a list of properties as long as your arm. For me, I chose Invert (even partially inverted) syrup to avoid having to boil down sucrose solution (which can crystallise at 67%) during the inverting process. If it works, I'll be trying it later.
I have seen a possible problem with my "shortcut"? Not everyone has an oven that will work reliably at 110-120C? Still ... mine does!
peebee
Out of Control
I created 280g of my "base" composed of golden syrup plus 4g blackstrap molasses. It's surprising how much colour such a small (1.2%) amount of blackstrap makes to the syrup. It's purpose is to provide a hint of raw sugar to the otherwise highly refined golden syrup (supermarket own brand, not Tate's which may still be made from raw ingredients - I've yet to check). The molasses also takes the colour to near No.2 Invert (perhaps a tad lighter?).
The dish went into the oven with temperature gauges to monitor progress:
It took 3/4 hour for the syrup temperature to get over 110°. It was then left in the oven holding to a temperature of 113-118°C. After 65 minutes the oven was turned off and the syrup allowed to cool in the oven. The syrup never boiled, foamed up, or did anything exciting! Good! The oven light has failed, which means I can't get stressed about the "cooking" process - I can't see it!
When cooled, the result was checked:
Hum! Can't say I was impressed by the change in colour! Although this piccie is well flash illuminated against a white background. The syrup has thickened a bit as might be expected. But what has dramatically changed is the taste! It's much more strongly flavoured, but does still taste of golden syrup (concentrated golden syrup!).
I haven't any Ragus invert sugar to compare it with, but do I want it tasting like it has 20% highly refined glucose powder added? That's what is in the Ragus product! This is destined for a Victorian "mild ale" recipe, 'scuse me if I'm not concerned about whether it's the same as the Ragus product!
I'll use this in my brew on Friday - it'll get written up in my "Victorian Mild!" thread.
The dish went into the oven with temperature gauges to monitor progress:
It took 3/4 hour for the syrup temperature to get over 110°. It was then left in the oven holding to a temperature of 113-118°C. After 65 minutes the oven was turned off and the syrup allowed to cool in the oven. The syrup never boiled, foamed up, or did anything exciting! Good! The oven light has failed, which means I can't get stressed about the "cooking" process - I can't see it!
When cooled, the result was checked:
Hum! Can't say I was impressed by the change in colour! Although this piccie is well flash illuminated against a white background. The syrup has thickened a bit as might be expected. But what has dramatically changed is the taste! It's much more strongly flavoured, but does still taste of golden syrup (concentrated golden syrup!).
I haven't any Ragus invert sugar to compare it with, but do I want it tasting like it has 20% highly refined glucose powder added? That's what is in the Ragus product! This is destined for a Victorian "mild ale" recipe, 'scuse me if I'm not concerned about whether it's the same as the Ragus product!
I'll use this in my brew on Friday - it'll get written up in my "Victorian Mild!" thread.
peebee
Out of Control
Actually, I might not of given it long enough anyway. I messed up my "calculation" I was basing my timings on Ron Pattinson's "Vintage Beer" book, but his instructions could be read as 1-2 hours after reaching No.2 colour, and I only gave it a bit over 1.
Do you think it might be easier to get an account at your local cash and carry,get an invoice for some lavatory paper for your "Brewery" then convince Ragus to sell you some invert...?
peebee
Out of Control
I can say, with some authority, lavatory paper is not a good substitute for sugar.
The other problem with your suggestion ... You live in North Wales. What is this "local" you speak of? I asked my neighbour, but she just said "baaa".
(And who are "Ragus"? Haven't they got some convincing to do?).
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Doesn't really take any time, if you make it in parallel with a brew, like Miraculix does :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/feedback-on-english-dark-mild-recipe.687106/page-3#post-9050913
AIUI your best bet is expat shops, the kind that sell delicacies such as Marmite and Hobnobs to homesick Brits. But I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to get it - it's just a hack that we use because it is so easily available to us, it's only an approximation to invert rather than some Holy Grail of an ingredient.
You won't find invert at homebrew retailers here either (hence all the talk about making it) - because it comes in 25kg (55lb) blocks and is a bitch to break down into retail-size lumps, certainly in a consistent way (but it could work as a group buy if people accepted that it would be on an "as is" basis of 4.2kg here and 6.1kg there)
Ragus much prefer to sell by the tonne, but I imagine places like Murphys would be happy to sell you 25kg.
peebee
Out of Control
I'm going to use this as an example of a few things I've learnt since starting this thread. This is not an attack on @Northern_Brewer who I rely on for all sorts of beery facts!
"Golden Syrup" isn't that much of a "hack". Made in the original way (Ragus, and more well known Tate's) the process will be very different from making Invert, it was a way of reclaiming sugar from what was otherwise a waste product from cane sugar refining. So it was effectively "raw" (not highly refined or purified) and only partially inverted ("partially" isn't the intention, just a result of the processing). The colour (and much of the flavour) is due to caramelisation also as a result of the processing. I'm not sure yet if the Tate's stuff still uses this traditional process?
Most (all?) cheap "golden syrup" is made from highly refined sugar (most if not all from beet). Apart from lack of "raw" components (molasses) it is made in a similar way to "invert sugar" in that it is coloured by intentionally caramelising the syrup. The lack of molasses will result in slightly less flavour (difficult to quantify its impact on beer).
There are also suggestions that the lack of molasses also means lack of amino acid component which would also mean no "Maillard" reactions. How much impact lack of "Maillard" reaction products has on the finished product is also debateable (the reactions would normally require higher temperatures than seen during creation of invert sugars).
The "partial inversion" is very likely of no importance. Golden syrup is mildly acidic anyway (the Tesco stuff I've been using is about pH4-4.5) and if using it in the way I describe it is unlikely any sucrose escapes inversion.
Ragus still produce Invert Sugar. But it should not be seen as an example of "how Invert should be"! Murph and Son do sell it. Just remember when you get your sticky 25Kg block, only 20Kg is actually Invert Sugar. 20% is highly refined glucose "filler"! I think it's there to create a solid block as Invert should be a syrup. Don't whatever you do think Ragus holds the keys to the "Holy Grail".
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