Brewer's Invert Sugar - the painless way!

[chthon]

Out of control is definitely a good description....

 

[Sadfield]

I'll say this for Candi Syrup Inc. The D-180 used in a Quad tasted nice enough and was easily the most predictable in colour, out of all other coloured sugars I've used, from supermarket or homebrew store. I should get hold of some Candico Syrop de Candi or Cassonade, and perhaps some Sinamar, for future attempts.

 

[peebee]

Out of control is definitely a good description....

... I fink me doctor's been messing wiff me medications?

 

[chthon]

I'll say this for Candi Syrup Inc. The D-180 used in a Quad tasted nice enough and was easily the most predictable in colour, out of all other coloured sugars I've used, from supermarket or homebrew store. I should get hold of some Candico Syrop de Candi or Cassonade, and perhaps some Sinamar, for future attempts.

I have already done this with cassonade, and I can predict the outcome with Candico syrup: too much molasses/liquorice taste. These sugars are made for baking and topping, from bread to pastry. The molasses is in balance with the rest of the sugar and its contents, and the way it is used.

However, using it in fermentation will remove all the sugars, and you will definitely taste the molasses.

I tasted the D-90 and D-180 syrups from Candi Inc, and they taste rather sharp, more like pure and concentrated caramel (E150a/b/c). Maybe it is even to mask the base taste of the syrup.

 

[Rakey]

Its supplied by Murphy and Son and it seems to be a #1 colour glucose syrup.
Or maybe not. I can only find 731 at Murphy and Son and not 743, which could well be much darker.
View attachment 82295
Here's a link to the data sheet. https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Brewing-Syrup-731-SDS-V2-04.08.2020.pdf
and this for the colour:
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/glucose-syrup-brewing-syrup-731-25kg/

In the same way that this is called brew length extender you can actually buy this in home brew format, both light and dark.

Mangrove Jacks Beer Enhancer​

I use this in a recipe that I brew when it calls for Invert Sugar

 

[Sadfield]

I have already done this with cassonade, and I can predict the outcome with Candico syrup: too much molasses/liquorice taste. These sugars are made for baking and topping, from bread to pastry. The molasses is in balance with the rest of the sugar and its contents, and the way it is used.

However, using it in fermentation will remove all the sugars, and you will definitely taste the molasses.

I tasted the D-90 and D-180 syrups from Candi Inc, and they taste rather sharp, more like pure and concentrated caramel (E150a/b/c). Maybe it is even to mask the base taste of the syrup.

I'm confused. When Westvleteren list their ingredients as:

Ingredients: Water, Barley Malt, Sugar, Candy Syrup, Yeast, Hops.

They're not using the offensively expensive and too sharp Candi Syrup Inc syrup. And the mass produced cheap, local alternative such as, Candico is to molasses/liquorice. What are they using, when multiple sources such as BLAM and Michael Jackson all report dark sugar Syrups or caramel as being the main source of colour and flavour?

 

[Pennine]

I'm confused. When Westvleteren list their ingredients as:

Ingredients: Water, Barley Malt, Sugar, Candy Syrup, Yeast, Hops.

They're not using the offensively expensive and too sharp Candi Syrup Inc syrup. And the mass produced cheap, local alternative such as, Candico is to molasses/liquorice. What are they using, when multiple sources such as BLAM and Michael Jackson all report dark sugar Syrups or caramel as being the main source of colour and flavour?

I am assuming something like this
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/candico-belgian-candi-syrup-dark-25-kg/
and then just plain beet sugar.

Edit just saw syrup...

 

[Sadfield]

I am assuming something like this
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/candico-candi-sugar-rock-dark-25-kg/
and then just plain beet sugar.

Why specify Candy Syrop? Surely the Amber or Dark Syrup from the same supplier would be more obvious?

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/candico-belgian-candi-sugars/

 

[Pennine]

Why specify Candy Syrop? Surely the Amber or Dark Syrup from the same supplier would be more obvious?

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/candico-belgian-candi-sugars/

Yes it has to be the dark syrup, my mistake about the rock sugar. The amber one is much too light for a 12.

 

[UKSkydiver]

Bearing in mind the title.... I'm confused and hoping someone will summarise thusly:

"To make invert sugar, do <insert method>... "

 

[Pennine]

Bearing in mind the title.... I'm confused and hoping someone will summarise thusly:

"To make invert sugar, do <insert method>... "

Skip the invert. Just mix ratios of table sugar and muscavado to get to the same end result.

 

[UKSkydiver]

That's what I thought I read somewhere, but it got lost in all the other bobbins.
Thank you

 

[peebee]

Bearing in mind the title.... I'm confused and hoping someone will summarise thusly:

"To make invert sugar, do <insert method>... "

My task of running up 10,000 hits to my original (off-site) thread has passed. Together with associated controversy (I hope). So, I'll replicate the instructions here. It's a very simple method! Because ... there is no need for the task to be difficult! These methods were to replicate the historical products (such as often specified in recipes dusted off by Ron Pattinson).



BASE SUGAR
I used Billington's "Golden Castor Sugar" and/or "Dextrose" (aka. glucose or "corn sugar"). I used all dextrose as base or 20% of total (like Ragus) ... it ferments easier and quicker but may have unknown implications?

You could use ordinary granulated white sugar, or, if you must, even baker's clear invert syrup, or make your own neutral invert syrup base. Don't use Golden Syrup, it's quite noticeably caramelised (and some people won't like it!).

This "base" is only fermentables, we get on to flavours next (the key was subtle use of flavoured sugars).

FLAVOURING SUGAR
(As a percentage of total sugar. If using a syrup as "base" make allowance for water content).

Using Billington's "Light Muscovado Sugar". Demerara, Molasses syrup, black treacle, "generic" brown sugar, etc. were found to be too variable to use predictably. I personally tested these using the lower figure in the range (sugar purchased mid 2022, though I wouldn't worry too much about manufacturer variations).

"Invert Sugar No.1" ... 12 - 15% Light Muscovado Sugar
"Invert Sugar No.2" ... 24 - 30% Light Muscovado Sugar
"Invert Sugar No.3" ... 48 - 60% Light Muscovado Sugar*

* Billington's "Dark Muscovado Sugar" preferred; see next.

"Invert Sugar No.3" ... 17 - 20% Dark Muscovado Sugar
"Invert Sugar No.4" ... 85 - 90% Dark Muscovado Sugar

For historical recreations: You can probably avoid "Invert Sugar No.4". It was rarely used, and the above formulation is probably too "nice" (the reality was it was by far the "roughest" of these sugars used). I used 60% Billington's "Molasses Sugar" in the trials for "No.4", but that sugar is less easy to find.

Footnote: "Invert Syrups" were created for convenience. It allowed higher concentrations of sugar. At a time when transport was a little more difficult. (Syrups containing only 60% of un-inverted sucrose sugar would crystalise - a right pain if using barrels for transport). However, some claim to be able to tell the difference, so going to the trouble of "inverting" is left up to the individual. Ragus (the last remaining manufacturer of Brewer's Invert Sugar) do use inverted syrup, which may be a marketing decision, or they do think it makes a difference flavourwise?

Most breweries these days use sucrose or glucose syrups, not invert.

There was (historically) strict tax rule applied to UK brewers' concerning sugar and the types allowed. Hence the UK developed very different ideas to sugar than the rest of the world.

The old (19th C.) method of making Invert Sugar and sugar refining has long ceased to be. Hence Ragus use a method of flavouring neutral invert syrup with molasses syrups much like the method detailed above! Ragus also add 20% powdered dextrose (glucose) to trigger crystallisation of the Invert Syrup (these days it is more convenient to pack it in boxes as a solid).

The neutral invert syrup can be made from beet sugar! It is chemically the same as cane sugar and no longer harbours unpleasant flavours like beet sugar of old.

I choose to use Billington's sugars because they are readily available in the UK and some other parts of the world. But I've chosen to use "Muscovado" sugar because an equivalent product should be available in other locations.

The method was modelled, and tested against, the Ragus Brewer's Invert Sugar, types L, M and D (they don't refer to the numbers or replicate the - rough-as-a-badger's-bu*, err, allegedly - "No.4".

 

[peebee]

One extra thing:

The sugars do impart colour as well as flavour. But the colour may not meet with many homebrewer's expectations! Get used to it! They were never "that" dark!

(Flip', I had to get used to it too).

 

[chthon]

Why specify Candy Syrop? Surely the Amber or Dark Syrup from the same supplier would be more obvious?

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/candico-belgian-candi-sugars/

After reading up on Candico and Belgosuc, I think that "candy syrup" is just a very generic term.

Edit: there seem to be strict lawful definitions:

• 'Candy sugar' are the coarse crystals obtained by cooling strongly concentrated saccharose solutions
• 'Candy syrup' is the residue of this process

This of course doesn't say anything about the starting sugars in the process. Working from clear saccharose, it seems to me e.g. that clear candy syrup from this process is what is used at Westmalle (according to an insider who unfortunately doesn't appear anymore on Dutch and/or Flemish homebrew forum).

Extrapolating on the logic, it would seem that it would be enough to further concentrate said syrups, and crystallizing them again to get more dark syrups.

And that reminds me of a lesson applied chemistry that I once had: such concentration of syrups and liquids is done with steam heating, so no overheating of sugars is done, and they don't become acidic.

The attachment is the product sheet of the Candico dark and light syrups.

Edit 2: this also means that these sugars don't include caramelization products. If having many organic impurities, there will probably be an amount of Maillard products, but still not overwhelming, I think.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Maybe this thread will aid the Belgian sugar debate. A mere 18 pages but most of the info in the first few.
Plenty of hot sugar here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/

 

[peebee]

Maybe this thread will aid the Belgian sugar debate. ...

What do you mean by "aid"? It'll "aid" me to fall out with you, like I seem to have done with the majority of users about here over flippin' $&^%*$ "candi sugar". And we don't really want to do that, so I suspect you're playing devil's advocate and attempting to wind me up for a laugh?

Well, I'm not playing ... so there!

 

[Pennine]

Well that thread didn't help now I am really confused. Whats the difference between the following:
Candi syrup
Brewers caramel
Inverted syrup
Sugar and molasses/muscavado

Can someone please explain what the differences are and how they change a recipe?

 

[Sadfield]

@Pennine I found this series of blogs a few years ago.

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/02/belgian-sugar-experiment.html?m=1
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/12/11-differnet-sugars-1-great-tasting.html?m=1

 

[Pennine]

@Pennine I found this series of blogs a few years ago.

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/02/belgian-sugar-experiment.html?m=1
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/12/11-differnet-sugars-1-great-tasting.html?m=1

Thanks this is super interesting. I read his blog often but have never seen this before.

The result for Lyle's is very different than what I would expect.