Brewer's Invert Sugar - the painless way!

[An Ankoù]

Its supplied by Murphy and Son and it seems to be a #1 colour glucose syrup.
Or maybe not. I can only find 731 at Murphy and Son and not 743, which could well be much darker.

Here's a link to the data sheet. https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Brewing-Syrup-731-SDS-V2-04.08.2020.pdf
and this for the colour:
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/glucose-syrup-brewing-syrup-731-25kg/

 

[patto1ro]

Its supplied by Murphy and Son and it seems to be a #1 colour glucose syrup.
Or maybe not. I can only find 731 at Murphy and Son and not 743, which could well be much darker.
View attachment 82295
Here's a link to the data sheet. https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Brewing-Syrup-731-SDS-V2-04.08.2020.pdf
and this for the colour:
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/glucose-syrup-brewing-syrup-731-25kg/

The No. 3 was in blocks, wrapped in blue plastic. I don't have a [particularly good photo of it:

 

[peebee]

Damn! I thought it would have to be Ragus. But with the first piccie showing "DOW" I had to give my wager winnings back. I can't get them to return my winnings now!

 

[An Ankoù]

I think Ragus wraps their stuff in paper in 25 Kg blocks. Maybe came from another manufacturer. Anyway, we'll all be brewing with turnips the way things are going.

 

[Sadfield]

Anyway, we'll all be brewing with turnips the way things are going.

Neep-ers are the new NEIPAs.

 

[peebee]

https://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-rise-and-fall-of-invert-sugar.html
The really useful bit is:

As it's now more expensive to get fermentable extract from sugar than it is from malt the use of sugar in brewing, inverted or not, has declined greatly. Ragus, the last remaining manufacturer of invert sugar blocks, says it now accounts for just 2.5% of their sales.

(This was back in 2016 BTW).

 

[chthon]

When syrups are heated, they first colour slightly, and then acquire additional fullness, and it is this property that makes a hundredweight of sugar properly cooked of more value to the brewer than the same quantity of raw sugar. When the heating is continued water is lost, until at about 110◦C caramel commences to be formed, and the syrup becomes acid owing to the formation of certain decomposition products of the sugars. (Evans, J. Inst. Brew., 1919).

Interesting. This is probably about raw cane sugar, not refined white sugar. Which probably makes a world of difference.

I made invert from pure sucrose, it does not start to colour until it reaches 110° C, which is due to the fructose starting to caramelise.

If you heat syrup from cane sugar, there are of course other products included which react in different ways at different temperatures. Also, the last sentence is interesting about the syrup becoming acid. I suppose that in 1919 the analysis of which products are responsible for this were not completely developed yet.

 

[Pennine]

Well even though you are just using us for clicks @peebee I decided to try out an idea. I picked up some dark muscado, molasses and date syrup. I am going to split a batch of bitter and mix in the three sugars to see if I can get flavour benefits of these without the downfalls of sugar/invert. Anyways I will post on another thread rather than filling this one with my nonsense.

 

[Sadfield]

We're in trouble if @peebee discovers tiktok.

 

[peebee]

We're in trouble if @peebee discovers tiktok.

Too late, I've discovered "tictok". Hasn't everyone? "Tiktok says it's 25 minutes past midnight and I'm off to bed.

 

[peebee]

Interesting. This is probably about raw cane sugar, not refined white sugar. Which probably makes a world of difference.

I made invert from pure sucrose, it does not start to colour until it reaches 110° C, which is due to the fructose starting to caramelise.

If you heat syrup from cane sugar, there are of course other products included which react in different ways at different temperatures. Also, the last sentence is interesting about the syrup becoming acid. I suppose that in 1919 the analysis of which products are responsible for this were not completely developed yet.

It is "interesting"!

1919 ... just shortly before Ragus came into being, but to be honest I don't know if Ragus started operations "emulating" the methods described in the 19th C. Heron documents (like I'm doing), or what method this 1919 document is describing. What is this 1919 document talking of: It mentions "caramelising", the Heron document mentions avoiding that possibility. You say "not refined white sugar" but would they have used centrifuges in 1919 and not gravity like in Heron, and they certainly had the centrifuge option in Heron's time, why did they not use it? Good job they didn't, or we'd likely never have had "Brewer's Invert Sugar".

Head scratching interlude required ...



I had hoped you would shine more light on that off-topic banter about "Candi<sic> Sugar" earlier, Being "the-man-on-the-ground" (i.e. in Belgium!). But it was probably advisable to keep low . I do get worked up by "snake-oil sellers" and folk attempting to hi-jack my thread (even though I'm notorious for thread hi-jacking myself!). I'm sure this "Candi Syrup Inc." bunch sell some very nice brewing sugars, they are just being (knowingly) deceitful about it (and probably near-criminal with their charges).

 

[chthon]

It is "interesting"!

1919 ... just shortly before Ragus came into being, but to be honest I don't know if Ragus started operations "emulating" the methods described in the 19th C. Heron documents (like I'm doing), or what method this 1919 document is describing. What this 1919 document is talking of: It mentions "caramelising", the Heron document mentions avoiding that possibility. You say "not refined white sugar" but would they have used centrifuges in 1919 and not gravity like in Heron, and they certainly had the centrifuge option in Heron's time, why did they not use it? Good job they didn't, or we'd likely never have had "Brewer's Invert Sugar".

Head scratching interlude required ...



I had hoped you would shine more light on that off-topic banter about "Candi<sic> Sugar" earlier, Being "the-man-on-the-ground" (i.e. in Belgium!). But it was probably advisable to keep low . I do get worked up by "snake-oil sellers" and folk attempting to hi-jack my thread (even though I'm notorious for thread hi-jacking myself!). I'm sure this "Candi Syrup Inc." bunch sell some very nice brewing sugars, they are just being (knowingly) deceitful about it (and probably near-criminal with their charges).

Still thinking about it. I have too much other things on my mind, too, too numerous to enumerate.

 

[An Ankoù]

I had hoped you would shine more light on that off-topic banter about "Candi<sic> Sugar" earlier, Being "the-man-on-the-ground" (i.e. in Belgium!). But it was probably advisable to keep low . I do get worked up by "snake-oil sellers" and folk attempting to hi-jack my thread (even though I'm notorious for thread hi-jacking myself!). I'm sure this "Candi Syrup Inc." bunch sell some very nice brewing sugars, they are just being (knowingly) deceitful about it (and probably near-criminal with their charges).

@peebee What's your beef with candi sugar and candi syrup? Why do you consider stockists of this adjunct to be "snake-oil sellers"? Just had a taste of some dark candi crystals and there's not much, if any molasses flavour in there, and it certainly isn't blocks of sucrose- not sweet enough by half! It's probably what it purports to be- invert, refined beet-sugar. If there's something wrong with that then it's passed me by.
I was looking at Candi Syrup inc earlier and they certainly seem to be successful in spite of their "near-criminal" charges (and they are near-criminal- check out amazon.co.uk). Nevertheless they appear to have a world-wide distribution and they've just bought a sizeable piece of land to increase their facilities. They must be doing something right. Again, what's your beef? I don't get it.
@chthon I get the impression you're following peebee's arguments. Can you shed any light?

I don't think anybody is claiming that candi-sugar (s) are the same as English invert brewing sugars, are they?

 

[Sadfield]

What's the issue with pricing?

Candi Syrup D-240 @ Braumarkt - 460ml - €6.95 - £6.15

Belgian Candi Sugar Syrup Dark 73% @ Maltmiller - 500ml - £5.59​

Brewferm Candy syrup liquid dark 250 ml (325 g) @ Brouwland - €5.99 x2 - £10.60​

Brewferm Candy Syrup Liquid Dark 250ml @ Brew2bottle - £4.95 x2 - £9.90​

 

[An Ankoù]

What's the issue with pricing?

Candi Syrup D-240 @ Braumarkt - 460ml - €6.95 - £6.15

Belgian Candi Sugar Syrup Dark 73% @ Maltmiller - 500ml - £5.59​

Brewferm Candy syrup liquid dark 250 ml (325 g) @ Brouwland - €5.99 x2 - £10.60​

Brewferm Candy Syrup Liquid Dark 250ml @ Brew2bottle - £4.95 x2 - £9.90​

I gather the specific issue is with Candi Syrup Inc, for example

but it might just be this particular vendor!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Seems rather expensive when compared with other vendors of liquid sugar.

 

[Sadfield]

Seems rather expensive when compared with other vendors of liquid sugar.

Could say the same about yeast...

100g of Dry yeast - £1.25 in Tesco.

 

[peebee]

Oops, probably best to keep low! I've stirred up the rabble again.

... What's your beef with candi sugar and candi syrup? ...

My "beef" is people are being persuaded to buy "candi<sic> sugar" to make "authentic" Belgian style beers. When it's nothing of the sort! It's an invention of bored minds. "Snake-oil venders" like such ridiculous ideas circulating 'cos they can supply stuff to non-existent specifications quite easily ... and sell them for extortionate sums of money.

"Real" Belgium brewers carry on using the sugar they've been used to using. Quite possibly the cheapest, plainest, most refined sugar they can buy.


@Agentgonzo: If you can find it in a Supermarket you could try putting up a picture of "Eastwicks" Golden Syrup, the original Golden Syrup! Wouldn't surprise me if a Supermarket somewhere sells Eastwick's? The manufacturer of Eastwick's is "Ragus" ... now where have I heard that name? Amazing what you can buy in Supermarkets!

 

[Agentgonzo]

"Real" Belgium brewers carry on using the sugar they've been used to using. Quite possibly the cheapest, plainest, most refined sugar they can buy.

I've heard that they use a lot of specially formulated white sugar. It's kept in large sacks in the brewery labelled "sucrose".

 

[Pennine]

Oops, probably best to keep low! I've stirred up the rabble again.





My "beef" is people are being persuaded to buy "candi<sic> sugar" to make "authentic" Belgian style beers. When it's nothing of the sort! It's an invention of bored minds. "Snake-oil venders" like such ridiculous ideas circulating 'cos they can supply stuff to non-existent specifications quite easily ... and sell them for extortionate sums of money.

"Real" Belgium brewers carry on using the sugar they've been used to using. Quite possibly the cheapest, plainest, most refined sugar they can buy.


@Agentgonzo: If you can find it in a Supermarket you could try putting up a picture of "Eastwicks" Golden Syrup, the original Golden Syrup! Wouldn't surprise me if a Supermarket somewhere sells Eastwick's? The manufacturer of Eastwick's is "Ragus" ... now where have I heard that name? Amazing what you can buy in Supermarkets!

I've been lead to believe that for a dubbel, or Westvleteren 12 style the only colour addition is from invert additions, hence Candi's niche. Have I been misinformed?

I agree for a tripel they would just dump a sack of refined beet sugar in it.

This is from BLAM about westy 8.

The monks won’t reveal how the dark beers obtain their color, as well as the intriguing flavors traditionally produced by darker malts and/or dark sugar. However, Jackson and others report the use of caramelized sugar. A longer boil also adds color.