Brewer's Invert Sugar - the painless way!

[RoomWithABrew]

What do you mean by "aid"? It'll "aid" me to fall out with you, like I seem to have done with the majority of users about here over flippin' $&^%*$ "candi sugar". And we don't really want to do that, so I suspect you're playing devil's advocate and attempting to wind me up for a laugh?

Well, I'm not playing ... so there!

Oops meant to say Fade the Belgian sugar debate.
The trick is to get the bite but also land the fish.
You're one that got away!

 

[peebee]

Well that thread didn't help now I am really confused. Whats the difference between the following:
Candi syrup
Brewers caramel
Inverted syrup
Sugar and molasses/muscavado

Can someone please explain what the differences are and how they change a recipe?

Brewer's Caramel: E150c, colour adjuster available to homebrewers from "Brupaks" (same as Caramel TMF by Murphy & Sons Ltd).
https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Caramel-TMF-Rev-4-CD.pdfhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramel_color
Inverted Syrup: Sucrose, a "disaccharide" (ordinary refined cane or beet sugar) split into two "monosaccharides" (glucose and fructose) by the addition of a water molecule. Has much greater solubility than sucrose (95% against 60%) and was once popular in beer brewing. Once created at various stages of old system sugar refining (numbered 1 to 4, 4 least refined and darkest in colour), now created by mixing a "molasses" with highly refined invert syrup. The invert syrups can be easily further coloured (the fructose readily caramelises at 110C) but this was avoided in the Invert No.1 - 4 products.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
Cane and beet sugars are composed of sucrose. Older refining processes allowed different products to be extracted at different times. For cane sugars these included sugars coloured to different shades of gold and brown depending on the level of impurities left in the finished sugar. "Muscovado" is a common name for some partly refined sugars. "Molasses" is a collective name for the by-product left over from these refinings (it is not one specific "thing"). Molasses is composed of "impurities" extracted from the sugar which will also include sugars like glucose and fructose (Molasses is a syrup).

Molasses can be created from beet sugar refining, but the impurities taste unpleasant to us, and it is/was used in animal feed. "Molasses" as a name can be (confusingly) applied to other flavoursome syrups such as "pomegranate molasses".

Sugar can also be created from grain. Often called (in America) "Corn Sugar". The starch (often maize) is broken down, often by "acid hydrolysis" like Invert Sugars to create glucose (d-glucose or dextrose). Sugar can also be created from other sources, fruit especially, which is then used for various "specialist" purposes (e.g. "date sugar").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

"Candy Syrup" (French: "Candi") is a product created from any of the above for sweets (candy!), baking and pastries, etc. Common on the European continent, but not so in UK it seems. Has gained a bazaar connection to beer making, especially in America and for (pseudo) "Belgian Abbey" beers.

Specially created by PeeBee Insomnia Services.

 

[peebee]

I was widely criticised for creating this thread with a link to an off-site thread (on a very modest sized forum) that could have attracted 10,000 hits within a year.

It was a measure of the popularity of this subject and how desperate homebrewers are to get hold of these, often seemingly mythical, sugar products.

...

Has everyone noticed this thread has already collected 2-3 thousand hits in less than two weeks?




[Edited for exaggeration: "Widely" ... was it heck, and I got rumbled for it!]

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hmm. I do use GS a lot it would appear mixing plain and moscavado is another trick I could try. The other thing here that piques my interest is which cheaper vs more convenient. I know I can boil sugar to get the colour syrup of my choice but as I only usually do short, part volume boils this may cost more. Certainly when I stir GS into the wort in the fv that is around 40c thats not going to change the colour so is it more effort perhaps to stir in granulated sugar? I already have to stir the life out of the 3kg or so of DME to get rid of the clumps. Less stirring is appealing.

For example this beer below has been verified as being better than Aventinus in a side by side test by a number of people.
I priced it up to see what I was saving by not having to buy Aventinus anymore

19/09/2022 - doppel weizen bock - brew 76 -orange cap
Tap water treated with 1/2 campden tablet
3kg dwe £26.28
1 kg dme extra dark £5.95
710g GS £1.20
500g dark candi sugar £2.50
100g saaz 15 min boil - 20 stand in 4.5l water £6.50
pitched @30c mj bav yeast then on 27/09/2022 wilco gervin in 110ml water £2.25 + £2.50
bottle cap 3p
£1.58 a 500ml bottle (bottles and labels extra)
18.5 litres in fv
og 1.101 - fg 1.025
12/10/2022 1.025 - 9.98% 16.33l bottled
10.18% after bottling

Unless entering a competition and brewing to style I don't see anything wrong trying your own ingredients variations out. Surely the point is to brew something you like to drink. (IN this recent brew - Aventinus) You can end up brewing a clone that's better than the original - This was my third or 4th attempt.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I was widely criticised for creating this thread with a link to an off-site thread

We're you? I haven't noticed people criticising you for the off site link. Yes. There's been a lot of ranting, but mostly about the topic.

 

[Sadfield]

Belgian breweries used "Invert Syrups" like the Brits. But also, any other forms of sugar they could lay their hands on (they were quite imaginative, even recycling sugar scrap from the many candy retailers

"Candy Syrup" (French: "Candi") is a product created from any of the above for sweets (candy!), baking and pastries, etc. Common on the European continent, but not so in UK it seems. Has gained a bazaar connection to beer making, especially in America and for (pseudo) "Belgian Abbey" beers.

All very contradictory.

Why would homebrewers get the odd notion that abbey beers contain candi syrup? Perhaps, because the most renowned beer is ******* made with it, and is listed in the ingredients on the monastry's own website.

https://www.trappistwestvleteren.be/en/our-beers/trappist-westvleteren-12

 

[Agentgonzo]

Unless entering a competition and brewing to style I don't see anything wrong trying your own ingredients variations out. Surely the point is to brew something you like to drink.

Entirely this. As a home brewer, you are primarily brewing for yourself. So  you get to decide what you do - no-one else. Even  if you are entering a comp, or brewing to some "style" invented by other homebrewers.

 

[peebee]

We're you? I haven't noticed people criticising you for the off site link. Yes. There's been a lot of ranting, but mostly about the topic.

Humm ... there might only be one? I might just be being "too sensitive"?

... This character who admittedly spoofs us to try to pick up clicks on his own post elsewhere, ...

But I don't like upsetting people (with some notable exceptions! And @An Ankoù isn't one of them!) so I will be "too sensitive"!


As for your next post ... I entirely agree! I'm only griping because some seem to think all the incredibly complicated processes are essential to get the correct end result. It was tried on me when I was coming to terms with "Brewer's Invert Sugar", but I don't think they would try that now! They are dissuading people from having a go. Yet all this complexity isn't performed by those creating the real deal, so it shouldn't be seen as an "essential" step to clone those types of beers.

I'm sure the "incredibly complicated processes" make delightful beer, I'm only trying to put across we can make equally delightful beer, and potentially more accurate clones, by not performing these crazy processes.

So  you get to decide what you do - no-one else. Even  if you are entering a comp, or brewing to some "style" invented by other homebrewers.

That's it!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Humm ... there might only be one? I might just be being "too sensitive"?

Probably. There are a couple of trolls on here that I have added to my ignore list, so maybe I just didn't see their posts. Either way, I've never seen "one person" translate to "widely before" .

As for your next post ... I entirely agree! I'm only griping because some seem to think all the incredibly complicated processes are essential to get the correct end result. It was tried on me when I was coming to terms with "Brewer's Invert Sugar", but I don't think they would try that now! They are dissuading people from having a go. Yet all this complexity isn't performed by those creating the real deal, so it shouldn't be seen as an "essential" step to clone those types of beers.

This can largely be translated as "keyboard warriors want to be right". It's not specific to homebrew, or these forums. RDWHAHB

 

[chthon]

I think we also need to be more creative in searching things.

I have colouring caramel at home (from my LHBS), this tastes bitter, but I accidentally tasted it in a less concentrated form, and I did taste caramel. So, a couple of minutes ago, I entered the following search "caramel tasting sensitivity in ppm", and I got a nice paper about caramels (see attachment).

TL;DR

When I look at the ingredients that can be used for the different classes of caramels, the instructions that can be found on-line for so called "candy syrup", are really instructions for making all kinds of caramels. And the real caramel industry uses milk proteins as sources of proteins in their caramels.

 

[peebee]

I've never seen "one person" translate to "widely before" .

Grrr ... okay, so I'm prone to a bit of exaggeration from time-to-time. Corrected; offending word removed.

 

[peebee]

Ha ... my "off-site post" in the OP is about to make its 10,000 hits in thirteen months rather than the twelve I was (controversially) aiming for. A "Bakers Dozen Year"?

Although the point I was making was the amount of interest in replicating impossible to obtain (historical) "invert sugars". Actually, the recent surge in hits was probably due to switching the subject matter to historical "brown malt" (well, that off-site thread was about replicating beers from late 19th, early 20th C., not just sugars).

Up to my old tricks? To make sure it goes through the 10K mark, I have "accidentally" dropped a link on Ron P's Blog site: Shut up about Barclay Perkins. Well, I'm a bit of a tart you know!

 

[peebee]

Didn't get there! About 9,520. The "surge" dwindled away.

Not important! Time to get on with something useful ... (These tomato seedlings look like they've been supping me beer? ...)

 

[JockyBrewer]

Nearly at 14,000 now.

I'm planning on making an old ale where the suggested recipe used around 14% of Ragus #3. With Ragus #3 being unavailable I started searching around for alternatives, and it has led me all over the place to get a better understanding of 'invert' sugar. Quite a lot of things on the subject previously didn't make sense to me, and while the only thing I'm certain of is that there is no one truth, I feel better informed on the subject now.

It's been an interesting read, thanks to @peebee for doing the research, experimentation and rambling write ups.

 

[peebee]

Nearly at 14,000 now. ...

Aye, and the tomato plants have just about blotted out light coming in from the conservatory roof.


And I might yet do a little more on sugar: Some "brands" of sugars used in the late 19th and early 20th century were caramelised (unlike Invert Sugar which never was caramelised). But information on them is very sketchy (perhaps non-existant?). Ron Pattinson mentions them in his Blog which is often the only suggestion I've got that such things existed. But even things like the generic black caramels he mentions in his recipes have significant quantity to them, not like the few millilitres of E150c caramel colouring I'm currently using. And if there's quantity, there's flavour!

I'm currently thinking of emulating some of the "generic" black caramels with Golden Syrup (for token caramel flavour) with appropriate amounts of E150c (for the black colour)? But as for the unknown miscellaneous sugars ... ? Not to be perfectly correct, but to be "about" in the right area. Black Treacle is a possibility for black caramel colour? But not one I'm keen on: Apart from its very strong flavour, like Invert Sugar, the colour isn't (wasn't) generated directly from intentional caramelisation, but way further back in the refinery processes. Golden Syrup is intentionally caramelised to copy the processes used in its original manufacture.

 

[JockyBrewer]

No doubt some brewers have used some form of caramelised sugar at some point in history. Brewers have tried everything else.

 

[dad_of_jon]

There is a great selection of sugars thesedays in supermarkets. I used coconut sugar from lidl in my last brew . Did it add anything to my Janet's treat?
Well it certainly added a few % abv

08/08/2023 brew 83 - Janet's Treat - porter
gozdawa yeast (bbe 05/23)
315g maple syrup (135ml bbe 04/23)
3kg muntons lme dark
500g dme extra dark (bbe 11/22) added at start of hopstand
250g coconut sugar added at start of hopstand
100g Jester 16% AA
15 liters treated, 3 for the boil
5 min boil - 30 min hopstand
1080 at 25c pitched at 28c
21/08/2023
og 1.081 - 1.020 = 8.01%
16.34l bottled

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I was lucky enough to get 10kg of coconut sugar for equivalent of five pounds. Went very nicely in a tropical stout, also porridge, coffee, pancakes.
Plenty left.

 

[MashBag]

No doubt some brewers have used some form of caramelised sugar at some point in history. Brewers have tried everything else.

Seems some people put porridge, coffee, pancakes in tropic stout... Blimey.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Seems some people put porridge, coffee, pancakes in tropic stout... Blimey.

How did you know what my next brew is?