Brewer's Invert Sugar - the painless way!

[Sadfield]

"Real" Belgium brewers carry on using the sugar they've been used to using. Quite possibly the cheapest, plainest, most refined sugar they can buy.

'Possibly'? So you basically have no idea what Belgian Brewers are using.

Sure you can probably get Candico (Antwerp) syrup for a few € cheaper in a Belgian supermarket, but when you factor in import costs, it wouldn't be cheaper for American brewers, than a product from a smaller US company, making smaller quantities with higher production costs.

 

[peebee]

I've heard that they use a lot of specially formulated white sugar. It's kept in large sacks in the brewery labelled "sucrose".

They do. So does T&L for their Golden Syrup. Yet both of them claim they make it to the "original" formula. It was a great disappointment when I found that out only quite recently. It's the point when I stopped emphasising that what I was doing was an "emulation" and switched to emphasising I was using a similar "emulation technique" as the sugar refiners (I was referring to Brewer's Invert Syrup, but it involves many very similar techniques when fabricating Golden Syrup). Even the "partial inversion" state is "emulated". They (both of them!) load fully inverted syrup with sucrose until they have the "correct" degree of inversion.

Bubble popping isn't it.

I've been lead to believe that for a dubbel, or Westvleteren 12 style the only colour addition is from invert additions, hence Candi's niche. Have I been misinformed?

I actually don't do much with the "Candi" <sic!!> hence I lean on someone from Belgium! The "Candi" knowledge is just incidental to going over the Brewer's Invert Sugar stuff. So, ... pass!

 

[An Ankoù]

I've been lead to believe that for a dubbel, or Westvleteren 12 style the only colour addition is from invert additions, hence Candi's niche. Have I been misinformed?

I agree for a tripel they would just dump a sack of refined beet sugar in it.

This is from BLAM about westy 8.

The monks won’t reveal how the dark beers obtain their color, as well as the intriguing flavors traditionally produced by darker malts and/or dark sugar. However, Jackson and others report the use of caramelized sugar. A longer boil also adds color.

My thoughts, too.

 

[peebee]

'Possibly'? So you basically have no idea what Belgian Brewers are using.

Does the last post of mine answer your question? But if that seems like an invitation for others to downplay my complaints about Candi<sic> Sugar, I will want to see their evidence!


I posted the bit about "Eastwicks" Golden Syrup to "level up" that emerging Supermarket debate (nowt wrong getting authentic brewing ingredients from the Supermarket). I've got you down as a champion for the "average" homebrewer, but you seem intent on damaging that illusion?

 

[An Ankoù]

They do. So does T&L for their Golden Syrup. Yet both of them claim they make it to the "original" formula. It was a great disappointment when I found that out only quite recently. It's the point when I stopped emphasising that what I was doing was an "emulation" and switched to emphasising I was using a similar "emulation technique" as the sugar refiners (I was referring to Brewer's Invert Syrup, but it involves many very similar techniques when fabricating Golden Syrup). Even the "partial inversion" state is "emulated". They (both of them!) load fully inverted syrup with sucrose until they have the "correct" degree of inversion.

Bubble popping isn't it.


I actually don't do much with the "Candi" <sic!!> hence I lean on someone from Belgium! The "Candi" knowledge is just incidental to going over the Brewer's Invert Sugar stuff. So, ... pass!

Bubble popping? It's more like BBB!
Now that we've moved over to candi sugar the question is whether it has a (no matter how short) tradition in Belgian beers, including Trappist beers. I don't think the holy gents are going to start foraging around for a couple of tins of tins of Tate & Lyle, do you? So it really doesn't matter whether or not the invert syrup is backloaded with sucrose to produce a partially inverted syrup.
More important perhaps, is that sugar refiners, including Ragus will find a bigger market in confectionery and baking products. That doesn't mean that companies like Ragus, or indeed, Candi Syrup inc. don't also cater for the brewing industry. Whether their brewing products are partially or fully inverted is a matter of some confusion in as much as maltose is a disaccharide which also needs to be inverted before fermentation. Not the same enzyme perhaps, but the principle's the same.
I'm at a loss to see the point of peebee's objections, frankly. This character who admittedly spoofs us to try to pick up clicks on his own post elsewhere, who throws in names of those who think do the sugars properly and those who don't according to his own criteria, who most recently demands evidence from those who want to downplay his objections. Je t'accuse! You're nothing but a troll, son. Away into the night with you.

 

[Sadfield]

Does the last post of mine answer your question? But if that seems like an invitation for others to downplay my complaints about Candi<sic> Sugar, I will want to see their evidence!


I posted the bit about "Eastwicks" Golden Syrup to "level up" that emerging Supermarket debate (nowt wrong getting authentic brewing ingredients from the Supermarket). I've got you down as a champion for the "average" homebrewer, but you seem intent on damaging that illusion?

So what is the US or UK supermarket equivalent of Candi Syrup D-180 or Candico Belgian Candi Syrup Amber, both around 400 ebc? It looks they're offering homebrewers usable products instead of them having to use half-baked approximations.

Someone should have a word with the Belgians about the egregious use of the word Candi.

 

[Pennine]

So what is the US or UK supermarket equivalent of Candi Syrup D-180 or Candico Belgian Candi Syrup Amber, both around 400 ebc? It looks they're offering homebrewers usable products instead of them having to use half-baked approximations.

Someone should have a word with the Belgians about the egregious use of the word Candi.

View attachment 82408

Yeah still confused about that? Candi French and Kandij Dutch right?

 

[peebee]

@An Ankoù : Flippin' heck, your punctuation has vanished! I can't get past line 3. I'm giving up for the night.

Don't anyone get ideas following that admission!

Back in the morning (or so). G'nite!






Saccadic Intrusions - EyeWiki.

 

[peebee]

... Someone should have a word with the Belgians about the egregious use of the word Candi. ...

Ahh ... French! That's where it comes from. A bit remiss of me that I didn't look up French and was concentrating on "Belgian" (which always came back with the Dutch, not the French) and Flemish for good measure. Thanks very much for that!

I can stop using the "<sic>" which is a pain to type. Probably best to have quotes though? e.g. "Candi".

 

[peebee]

@An Ankoù : Flippin' heck, your punctuation has vanished! I can't get past line 3. I'm giving up for the night. ...

That's better, eyes back under control!

It's more like BBB!

Sorry, don't understand "BBB"?

... foraging around for a couple of tins of tins of Tate & Lyle, do you? ...

The "Golden Syrup" banter was a bit of side-lining, nowt to do with Belgian Beer does and don'ts. But "Golden Syrup" is a little bit caramelised (unlike Brewer's Invert Sugar), so I guess homebrewers do use it in their "Belgium Beer" recipes? It isn't very expensive. I've got loads of the flippin' stuff from when I thought Brewer's Invert Sugar was caramelised like in all those daft instruction making pretend "Brewer's Invert Sugar". (A much easier and better way is detailed >here< )

... That doesn't mean that companies like Ragus, or indeed, Candi Syrup inc. don't also cater for the brewing industry. ...

Of course not. Did I say that?

... maltose is a disaccharide which also needs to be inverted before fermentation ...

True, but technically not "inverting", optical rotation stays in the same direction (no fructose) ... but that's nit-picking.

I'm at a loss to see the point of peebee's objections, frankly. ... <etc!>

Ouch! The gloves are off it seems?

 

[chthon]

I am pretty sure the Belgian word "kandij" is derived from the English word "candy", which in its turn is derived from:

The word candy entered the English language from the Old French çucre candi ("sugar candy"). The French term probably has earlier roots in the Arabic qandi, Persian qand and Sanskrit khanda, all words for sugar.

Apparently (only according to their website, no other sources immediately found), the history of sugar refining already starts in the 14th century in the vicinity of Antwerp.

So, the usage of the word "candi" seems to me, either derived from the French, which in this vicinity is not unheard of, or a bit of marketing, to be able to register a company, in the case of Candi Syrup Co.

One thing I got from "Brew like a monk", and I can believe this, is that the trappist monks certainly try to get the least expensive ingredients (and also from notes here and there on the Flemish and Dutch forums, where sometimes someone who works in the industry can give a feedback (but not much)).

 

[peebee]

Right ... I've got to deal with that "terrible" (grrrrr) post of @An Ankoù's ...

@An Ankoù : Starting with the accusation that I'm a Troll! I've got an old post on that subject that I can rework:

Unfortunately, I really miss the banter with the "Troll" I originally aimed that at!

(Seriously, I don't knowingly attack individuals for their misconceptions ... but groups, companies, etc. who knowingly deceive to forward there aims - that usually means "make money out of" - they really p*** me off. But if I get a bit out of hand @Chippy_Tea beats me with a stick).

And that mate of yours ...

Completely barmy. ...

Had you (@An Ankoù) been telling him anything? Or did he know or guess? This "in code" 'cos it's nothing for me to be proud of ... (TBI, classed "severe" according to the GCS, and according to UK government I'm SMI, flippin' hateful term but it gets me off paying UK "Council Tax" - there, that's nobbled any cred I had on this forum).

I'd quote "acknowledgement" from RP, but I had his Sicilian Agent on the phone yesterday demanding more extortion money asking for more charitable donations to cover the damage to his reputation for being in any way associated with my name. And I can't afford it.

And as for ....

... spoofs us to try to pick up clicks on his own post elsewhere ...

Outrageous! To think I would do such a thing!




CLICK ME!

(Only 1590 clicks to go ... before next Thursday ).

 

[Sadfield]

I wonder if the now defunct Spencer Trappiste Brewery used Candi Syrups products, given that they claimed everything except their yeast was of US origin.

 

[peebee]

I wonder if the now defunct Spencer Trappiste Brewery used Candi Syrups products, given that they claimed everything except their yeast was of US origin.

Corn Sugar/Syrup (glucose/dextrose) most likely. That'll be cheap.

 

[Sadfield]

Corn Sugar/Syrup (glucose/dextrose) most likely. That'll be cheap.

It wouldn't provide the colour or flavour for a dark abbey beer though. So what cheap product do the belgian Trappistes use?

 

[peebee]

So what cheap product do the belgian Trappistes use?

Blimey, I don't know. Why ask me? But very nice of you to ask. Try asking them?

 

[peebee]

I wonder if the now defunct Spencer Trappiste Brewery used Candi Syrups products, given that they claimed everything except their yeast was of US origin.

Anyway. We're talking "Belgium" and Spencer Trappiste Brewery, while certainly a Trappist Monastery, is in ... you tell us!

 

[Sadfield]

Anyway. We're talking "Belgium" and Spencer Trappiste Brewery, while certainly a Trappist Monastery, is in ... you tell us!

Like you imagined, no respectable Belgian brewery is going to buy in such ridiculous foreign products. (BTW; there's no "tradition" of using "Candi" <sic> sugar in Belgium; the stuff might have been "invented" by the same folk who came up with caramelised "invert syrups").

Why rant about a US company then, if we're talking Belgium?

 

[peebee]

Why rant about a US company then, if we're talking Belgium?

... but groups, companies, etc. who knowingly deceive to forward there aims ... they really p*** me off. ...

You now come under "etc". I used to trust you, like others here. Now ... but I don't know about the others. Do you.

 

[Sadfield]

I really haven't a clue what this tinfoil hat nonsense is about. Or, why it's so problematic that an American company can make caramelised invert syrup, mainly for sale in the US, at a price similar to that which European manufacturers are selling similar in Europe. Especially when it saves homebrewers the complexity of heating sugar to make their own. Or why it matters if something is called candy, candi, kandi or caramel. Given the initial point of the thread was solely posed to direct Internet traffic, I guess it's to be expected that it's all gone very weird.