Brewer's Invert Sugar

[peebee]

This is where it gets tricky! As the water boils off the thermal mass* of the syrup picks up the heat really quickly so you have to constantly keep lowering the stove temperature or it will caramelise. For this reason I dont like the set and forget oven method. Hot sugar syrup is nasty S* its no place for pets or children! Now I only make #1 & 2 its a lot safer. *not sure if mass is the correct term. BI is a 1000% better than using white sugar in brewing. Cheers...

I think that's one of the benefits of "inverting"? Once there is a decent amount of fructose you can start easing off on the boiling. Fructose begins to be caramelised at a much lower temperature (I think you mean "burning" in your last post, not caramelising!). With the oven at 110-120C you shouldn't be in danger (unless you set and "really" forget!).

What you describe is what I once imagined and hence was never tempted to make the stuff.

 

[F00b4r]

Good thread peebee but; In my brewing world brewers invert and candy syrup are as different as goldfish to elephants. BI is made using the maillard reaction and candy syrup by the caramelisation process and never the twain should meet.
Brewers Invert doesn't have much taste, in fact it has a dry funny sort of taste not sweet and defiantly not candy / toffee.
I have made lots of BI with success and many failures from getting the sugar syrup too hot! mainly when I’m shooting for a BI# 3 or 4., nows days I just make BI# 1 & 2 and get colour in my beers using midnight wheat, so long as the sugar has inverted bingo!!
Inverted sugar shouldn’t have any taste thats one of the reasons confectioners use it. I believe most modern Invert is manufactured using a chemical process I have seen it for sale in 25Kg pails, for me cooking up a batch at home is just another fun part of learning how to brew…

ps A-R Maillard is soooo slow to get to #1 can take an hour and a half cos you cant go over 110c...

The idea that brewers invert has no taste is simply not true, it has a lot of flavour complexity and those flavours follow through into the beer itself; there is a reason my kids are like gannets when they know I have the Ragus stuff out to brew with.
Also the later post with regard to it being a cheap malt substitute is not true either, malt can be had for cheaper than the invert sugars so there would be no reason to use them in recent times as a cost saver, in fact quite the opposite.
A number of people on JBK have used the various Ragus inverts as well as having made their own and there are threads detailing the results. If you want to make your own then you want to start with the most flavourful sugars that you can get as it seems to be the “impurities” bringing the desired qualities to the table.

 

[chthon]

This is where it gets tricky! As the water boils off the thermal mass* of the syrup picks up the heat really quickly so you have to constantly keep lowering the stove temperature or it will caramelise. For this reason I dont like the set and forget oven method. Hot sugar syrup is nasty S* its no place for pets or children! Now I only make #1 & 2 its a lot safer. *not sure if mass is the correct term. BI is a 1000% better than using white sugar in brewing. Cheers...

Yes, that is why I keep at the stove during the whole process, with my thermometer in my hand. I have an induction stove, I have the impression this makes it simpler to control the process, at the end I only need to switch a bit between settings 1 and 2 to keep it more or less at the right temperature.

 

[peebee]

... Also the later post with regard to it being a cheap malt substitute is not true either ...

Reading that linked document @scomet posted does give the impression economy was involved. But that's the problem of reading too much into a 120 year old document: Appears we developed quite a taste for these sugar additions and we kept them going even when economic arguments failed, and now us home-brewers better understand the mechanisms behind those flavours and hanker after it some more.

Whereas, if "Invert Sugar" was discovered now we'd have no interest in adding it to beer, like we've no interest adding other foreign garbage, like coffee and chocolate, to beer ... (have I just shot down my own argument?).

 

[peebee]

... *not sure if mass is the correct term. ...

Possibly not? I think "holds the heat well" goes easier on us amateurs.

 

[F00b4r]

Reading that linked document @scomet posted does give the impression economy was involved. But that's the problem of reading too much into a 120 year old document: Appears we developed quite a taste for these sugar additions and we kept them going even when economic arguments failed, and now us home-brewers better understand the mechanisms behind those flavours and hanker after it some more.

Whereas, if "Invert Sugar" was discovered now we'd have no interest in adding it to beer, like we've no interest adding other foreign garbage, like coffee and chocolate, to beer ... (have I just shot down my own argument?).

I would think what you have used is more accurate but it may be that the situation has reversed several times over the years. I do not know the reason why the invert sugars were introduced in the first place but it may be that increasing attenuation was just as much the original prime motive for using them, just look at a lot of Belgian beers, without sugar they would be very different in taste.

 

[Elsebridge]

Loving this thread! Here’s a question I’ve not been able to find an answer to - where I live I can get baker’s invert (so the same as invert #1 as far as I can tell) but nothing else. Could I chuck it in the oven at 120 until it darkens to #3 as-is or would I need to do anything else to it?

 

[peebee]

Loving this thread! Here’s a question I’ve not been able to find an answer to - where I live I can get baker’s invert (so the same as invert #1 as far as I can tell) but nothing else. Could I chuck it in the oven at 120 until it darkens to #3 as-is or would I need to do anything else to it?

I've been thinking along similar lines, but using Golden Syrup as a base (it can be had in "catering" size quantities). But both share a problem. Neither will be produced from raw sugar which is important to support Maillard reactions (which are apparently important for creating the right flavours, and colouring). The "raw" bits provide the necessary proteins (amino acids). Both should caramelise at lower temperature, and both avoid seething pots of boiling sugar syrup because the syrup is already inverted and reduced (the fructose also allows high concentration of sugar, sucrose solutions can crystallise, and often do, at above 67%).

Golden Syrup is only part inverted and I'm not sure yet how much more it needs to work, or if it needs additional inverting at all.

Lyle's Golden Syrup (and the equivalent Ragus product) was produced from raw product ("waste" product from refining!) but I'm not sure if it still is? Your "baker's invert" and "cheap" Golden Syrups are most likely made from highly refined beet sugar (no molasses). Perhaps small additions (0.5%?) of molasses (blackstrap) will do the job?

 

[Slid]

I make golden syrup on the stove at home. 100g granulated and 2 tablespoons of water, a good shake of lemon / lime juice to start with, in a small-ish pan.
Then heat it until it starts to caramelise, brown it up to the colour you want, then add 300ml boiling water and 500g granulated sugar, boil it up and that's basically it. Some going in the Leffe Brown clone day after tomorrow.

It's pretty easy to do.

Is less refined sugar as a base "better" - no information. Will it be radically different? - no information from experience, but very interested in hearing from those who have and which beers they may have produced from their experiments.

 

[Elsebridge]

I've been thinking along similar lines, but using Golden Syrup as a base (it can be had in "catering" size quantities). But both share a problem. Neither will be produced from raw sugar which is important to support Maillard reactions (which are apparently important for creating the right flavours, and colouring). The "raw" bits provide the necessary proteins (amino acids). Both should caramelise at lower temperature, and both avoid seething pots of boiling sugar syrup because the syrup is already inverted and reduced (the fructose also allows high concentration of sugar, sucrose solutions can crystallise, and often do, at above 67%).

Golden Syrup is only part inverted and I'm not sure yet how much more it needs to work, or if it needs additional inverting at all.

Lyle's Golden Syrup (and the equivalent Ragus product) was produced from raw product ("waste" product from refining!) but I'm not sure if it still is? Your "baker's invert" and "cheap" Golden Syrups are most likely made from highly refined beet sugar (no molasses). Perhaps small additions (0.5%?) of molasses (blackstrap) will do the job?

That’s a good point. I think I’ll give it a go anyway for my next brew as I have a few hundred grams of invert left and some molasses - if I have time this week I may try it and will report back!

I found cane syrup online as well which looks reasonably unprocessed (hopefully just reduced cane juice); I’ll try making it from scratch using that next if this doesn’t produce the desired results.

 

[johncrobinson]

There seems to be an awful lot of online confusion between Belgian candy (Maillard reacted )and plain caramalised sugar also passed off as Belgium candy.
The same name for very different products is bound to confuse a lot of folks.

 

[Partial_Object]

I used Demerara a while back to make some #2 for a mild but from what I've been reading, muscovado might be better suited as it is less refined

 

[peebee]

I'm starting to get a bit cynical about this Invert Sugar business. Just how much effect does this "Maillard reaction" waffle have? And is it's contribution not just over-shadowed by the undeniable changes that caramelisation imparts to the flavour?

Looking back at the Ragus linked article (Brewer and Distiller International magazine article from December 2015), their product is loaded (20%) with glucose (to "seed" it into a solid block?) and they sell "Brublocks" which is just glucose with a dollop of molasses (i.e. no caramelisation!) except they might add a touch of caramel (fully caramelised black) for the darker blocks ("No.4").

And @johncrobinson chips in claiming proper Belgium Candy sugar relies on Maillard reactions too (and therefore raw sugars?). I thought much European sugar was beet, but the Spanish and Portuguese (and Dutch?) were (historically) just as eager so soil their hands with the horrors of the slave trade and cane sugar as were the Brits.

So I'm going to stick with playing with Golden Syrup, not worry about it's source (perhaps add about 0.5% molasses, perhaps switch to colourless "Baker's Invert"?) and trial further caramelisation in the oven (or "Instantpot" if I can figure suitable settings). And by "trial" I mean avoid pans of boiling sugar solutions (making marmalade is quite stressful enough for me; and I certainly don't try to make chips!).

I'll sidestep the snobbery (I've plenty of things to be a snob about without adding another).

There. That should wind a few folk up!

 

[An Ankoù]

I must say that trying to make #3 invert for the Christmas Chocolate Porter was a pain in the 'arris and while I think I got it to the colour that Ron Pattinson describes as #2, I ended up using something else. It seems that there's some disagreement anyway over the colours R P proposes. So to cut a long story short, why wouldn't adding plain white sugar to a beer that calls for invert and then adding an appropriate amount of crystal / caramel malt of the required colour work?

 

[peebee]

I must say that trying to make #3 invert for the Christmas Chocolate Porter was a pain in the 'arris and while I think I got it to the colour that Ron Pattinson describes as #2, I ended up using something else. It seems that there's some disagreement anyway over the colours R P proposes. So to cut a long story short, why wouldn't adding plain white sugar to a beer that calls for invert and then adding an appropriate amount of crystal / caramel malt of the required colour work?

Well I can my feelings to that:

I most definitely will not add "add plain white sugar to a beer" for a very simple reason ...

It's one of those "plenty of <other> things to be a snob about".

 

[An Ankoù]

Well I can my feelings to that:

I most definitely will not add "add plain white sugar to a beer" for a very simple reason ...

It's one of those "plenty of <other> things to be a snob about".

Well apart from snobbery, then, let's say you dig a bit deeper in your pocket and use baker's invert, which is going to be pretty much the same, chemically, once the acidity of the wort has inverted the sucrose, do you think colourless invert (or a good dollop of Tate and Lyles) plus an appropriately coloured crystal malt would work?
As for slavers, let's not forget the French working out of Nantes and other places. Nantes has something like a subway (of the crossing the road type where you walk in one end and read a series of plaques and engravings about French contribution to slavery. A fascinating hour of discovery. if you like lurking in subways, that is.

 

[peebee]

Were the French at it too? I had assumed they were still getting over chopping peoples' heads off and losing attempted take overs of Europe (the entire world?).

Stilll ...

I'm pretty sure adding crystal malt in place of caramelised sugar (and their Maillard products?) isn't going to fool everyone. I'd just avoid recipes claiming to contain Invert.

 

[An Ankoù]

Were the French at it too? I had assumed they were still getting over chopping peoples' heads off and losing attempted take overs of Europe (the entire world?).

Stilll ...

I'm pretty sure adding crystal malt in place of caramelised sugar (and their Maillard products?) isn't going to fool everyone. I'd just avoid recipes claiming to contain Invert.

There's still a great love of kicking off for a tasteful bit of rowdy behaviour, smashing up banks and torching cars, but it's just boys and girls having fun. Keeps everyone on their toes and makes the old bill earn their francs instead of beating up girls at candle-lit vigils. (There's more than an element of wind-up here for those not accustomed to by sepulchral humour, but there's an element of truth, too). Crystal and caramel malts also undergo Maillard reactions. I think a side-by-side experiment is required. trouble is that so many of the old recipes contain invert of some description.
Right, I've got a particularly spidery shed to clean out and the little blighters put the willies up me so I'd better get on with it.

 

[F00b4r]

Golden syrup certainly tastes nothing like 1/2/3 and If IIRC the baker’s version is tasteless (or close to) so go ahead and experiment away with them but don’t try to claim that you are doing anything to do with the commercial brewing inverts. There is a distinct flavour carry through from the Ragus stuff into the finished beer and others, whose opinion I trust, also say it helps condition the beer quicker (compared to an all malt grist).
If I was in the UK any time soon I would send you a small sample of each so you could taste the difference, Corona and the import/export issues with Brexit have probably made that impossible in the near future.
A group buy is probably your best bet to not going round in circles or off at a complete tangent and trialling something completely different in taste.

 

[An Ankoù]

Golden syrup certainly tastes nothing like 1/2/3 and If IIRC the baker’s version is tasteless (or close to) so go ahead and experiment away with them but don’t try to claim that you are doing anything to do with the commercial brewing inverts. There is a distinct flavour carry through from the Ragus stuff into the finished beer and others, whose opinion I trust, also say it helps condition the beer quicker (compared to an all malt grist).
If I was in the UK any time soon I would send you a small sample of each so you could taste the difference, Corona and the import/export issues with Brexit have probably made that impossible in the near future.
A group buy is probably your best bet to not going round in circles or off at a complete tangent and trialling something completely different in taste.

I thought all this about making your own was because brewers inverts were unavailable in home brew quantities, but you sound as though you've got a supplier. Could you tell us where you get this "Ragus" stuff? Thanks.