Brewer's Invert Sugar

[peebee]

I'd heard No.1 did taste a bit like Golden Syrup?

Anyway, the reason for my turn-around is that Ragus No.1 (2, 3, etc.). Why do we try to emulate that when we know it's diluted with 20% "wheat-derived glucose"? What does it really taste like? What is "It"?

 

[Galena]

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/invert-sugar/

 

[F00b4r]

I thought all this about making your own was because brewers inverts were unavailable in home brew quantities, but you sound as though you've got a supplier. Could you tell us where you get this "Ragus" stuff? Thanks.

It was a friend who organised a group buy a while ago - I think they got it direct from Ragus but I might be wrong as I know they won’t always deal direct with homebrewers.
You can buy it from brewery suppliers, such as Brewers Select, but with the current brewing climate they might not have them in all stock (they only had one of them a few weeks ago), hopefully this is about to change with the planned pubs reopening and breweries needing it again. Be warned though that they come in 25kg blocks and are fairly messy to divvy up.

 

[F00b4r]

I'd heard No.1 did taste a bit like Golden Syrup?

Anyway, the reason for my turn-around is that Ragus No.1 (2, 3, etc.). Why do we try to emulate that when we know it's diluted with 20% "wheat-derived glucose"? What does it really taste like? What is "It"?

#1 tastes a lot more like old fashioned freshly made fudge.
I THINK they use the glucose to create the blocks but don’t quote me on it as I may be making that bit up. Ask on Jim’s about it as there are quite a few people there that have used it and are more familiar with how Ragus make it (it’s not the same process that you would use at home).

 

[johncrobinson]

There are several reasons for treating sugar to these reactions.
Depending on the nitrogen source malliard reactions can simulate fruit flavours where no fruit exists and so will add fruit flavour notes.(suitable N2 sources are DAP and DME)
Also some of the sugars are rendered unfermentable so there will be a residual sweetness (similar in principle to using lactose).

All this applies i believe (historically) only to continental lager-beer styles.

My interest is in adding complexity to wine.!!!!

 

[Argentum]

The advice I've seen as to the making of Invert Sugar centers upon sustaining 245 degrees F., or 120 degrees C. for hours. That's why I suggested simply placing it in an oven. But the more I think of this, the more it seems that the temperature must be permitted to continually rise. What is correct? Hold at a single target temperature for what may be many hours in the hope of progressive Maillard darkening, or let it rise beyond said fixed temperature?

 

[johncrobinson]

This Argentum is where my earlier aforementioned comments about confusion comes in.
Sugar inversion is not in fact Maillard reactions.

Sugar is inverted in an acidified solution and can be totally clear in appearance.You can then go on to caramalise the sugar to various states of darkness by increasing the heat .

Maillard reacted sugar is done in an alkali solution and occurs suddenly at a very specific temperature the sugar takes on a Reddish appearance the taste is different to caramel.
The process also requires a nitrogen or protein source normally DAP or DME mixed in with the sugar.

Just to add confusion you can then caramalise your maillard sugar to get both flavour profiles.!!!!!!!

The terms are used interchangeably on the internet especially on you-tube ,When in actual fact the two processes are as different as chalk and cheese.

 

[peebee]

The advice I've seen as to the making of Invert Sugar centers upon sustaining 245 degrees F., or 120 degrees C. for hours. That's why I suggested simply placing it in an oven. But the more I think of this, the more it seems that the temperature must be permitted to continually rise. What is correct? Hold at a single target temperature for what may be many hours in the hope of progressive Maillard darkening, or let it rise beyond said fixed temperature?

It wasn't you I was stealing the "oven" idea off, it was @Hanglow. Perhaps it's a more widely known trick than I first implied?

Fructose starts to caramelise at 110C, so holding an invert sugar syrup at 120C seems reasonable, but must be very close to it's boiling point? Actual boiling point will depend on sugar concentration, I wouldn't be at all happy risking it unless the solution is above 85-90% (Golden Syrup is 83-84% so that's something to look out for!). I'd probably try for 112-114C to hopefully avoid having a pan of sugar syrup boiling in the oven.

Maillard reactions weren't even known about in Victorian times ("It is named after French chemist Louis Camille Maillard, who first described it in 1912" - Wikipedia) so any Maillard components present in early Invert Sugars would have not been intentional. And therefore it was unlikely the acidity from inverting would have been neutralised to assist "Maillard" reactions. The reactions do occur in acid environments, but alkaline environments speed it along.

One thing is undeniably correct: The original Invert Sugar didn't contain 20% wheat-derived glucose (added to "seed" the invert syrup into a solid block - presumably, as Ragus mention them together but don't actually state the glucose does the seeding). Because of this I don't trust Ragus to be the "protector" of all things Invert Sugar, and wouldn't depend on their product to accurately describe the flavour of beers produced with Invert generally (especially as they also market "Brublocks" which can't possibly resemble Invert Sugar accurately).

 

[peebee]

... Ask on Jim’s about it as there are quite a few people there that have used it and are more familiar with how Ragus make it ...

Thank very much. I'll do that!

It's easy for me to forget which forum I'm on sometimes!

 

[peebee]

This doesn't help:

Caramelization is an entirely different process from Maillard browning, though the results of the two processes are sometimes similar to the naked eye (and taste buds). Caramelization may sometimes cause browning in the same foods in which the Maillard reaction occurs, but the two processes are distinct. They are both promoted by heating, but the Maillard reaction involves amino acids, whereas caramelization is the pyrolysis of certain sugars.[citation needed]

Wikipedia

 

[chthon]

The big question that doesn't get resolved is: why did the English brewers do it? What British brewers did was use strong acids (sulphuric acid e.g.) to obtain a fast sugar inversion, which was then stopped by using an alkaline solution (such information can be found in the brewing books that @patto1ro likes to photograph).

There doesn't seem evidence that these brewers took the time to let the result get coloured. But there was apparently a shift from making invert themselves, to buying all kinds of inverts and sugars from specialist suppliers.

 

[Clint]

I've put my leftovers from the Christmas brew into an ESB. So looking forward to trying it.
I've had a Google..found the Ragus but also came across the Tate and Lyle Sugars site...they list invert syrups of varying colours stating use for brewing... interesting bit...pack size..25kg pail,300g tub,IBC (lots!).
Don't know their minimum order size but it's worth an email I suppose.

 

[Partial_Object]

I'm not sure anyone is bothered about the chemistry but It's worth stating again that sugar inversion is acid catalysed rather than a direct 1:1 reaction. The maillard reactions occur due to the presence of free amine groups on amino acids and they aren't free if they're bound to H(+) [I.e acid] which is what would happen if you totally acidified the sugar. - But you don't need to totally Acidify the sugar to get hydrolysis (inversion), you just need a bit as the same bit of acid can help hydrolyse lots of sucrose.

Therefore provided you show a steady hand with your acid addition, and the amino acids are there you will get both maillard products and caramelisation at say 130C

 

[Argentum]

I would assume that for 1 Kg. of sugar, 1 gram of anhydrous Citric Acid should suffice. And when done, 1 gram of added baking soda would pretty much neutralize any remaining Citric Acid.

Citric Acid should be far more flavor neutral than lemons.

 

[peebee]

It worries me adding baking soda to acidified sugar syrup ...

 

[Clint]

In a crunchie sort of way...

 

[Argentum]

It worries me adding baking soda to acidified sugar syrup ...

Good to know that this is the outcome before I actually attempted it. I guess the baking soda must be added slowly, and with plenty of intermittent stirring to degas along the way.

 

[chthon]

Come on, just do it. I didn't know what to expect the first time I made invert syrup. Use a pot that is big enough (I actually use on of 1l for making around 500g of invert syrup). Don't stop using your thermometer. When the liquid starts boiling, decrease your heat and keep monitoring your temperature. When you reach 108° C, the temperature will plateau some time, turn down your heat a bit then, and wait until the temperature increases again to 114° C. Then try to keep it stable.

What I also do: first make sure all your sugar is dissolved completely, at around 80° to 90° C before increasing the temperature and adding your acid.

When you are finished, put the syrup on a coaster and let it cool to around 80° before moving it to a container for storage (when using glass, make sure the container has been preheated).

I think if you use 1g of acid (citric or tartaric), you only need to use 0,5g of bicarbonate. Not really possible to add this amount slowly. You can also wait until the syrup has cooled a little bit before adding it.

 

[Clint]

I found it easy to make,just time consuming.

 

[peebee]

Come on, ...

Spoil-sport