What The Hell Are The Police Doing

[Pavros]

If the criminals have rights when they are breaking the law, what about the rights of decent people who
1. Want to live without having their homes burgled
2. Want to live without having their possessions stolen or smashed
3. Want to live without fear?

This is one thing I genuinely don't understand. Everyone talks about the rights of the person breaking the law but seem to ignore the rights of the victims

 

[Thumper]

That may be good advice in an urban setting where the plod are likely to turn up in an hour or so, but out in the sticks? Doesn't work like that, and the criminals know it.

A fair point, but the principle holds. Get to a back room or the top of the stirs, don't block the exit, and tell them to take what they want and leave. Tooling up and going looking for them puts you in more danger, not less. Again, they want your stuff, not a fight.

I get that's hard advice to follow, and I imagine I'd have a hard time swallowing it myself. But that's just pride. Stay out of the way and let them have the damn tv.

 

[BeerCat]

Try asking the police what reasonable force you can use in your own home against intruders. The PC i asked could not give me an answer. Does that comfort anyone.

 

[Gunge]

tell them to take what they want and leave.

Why would anyone want to do that? I've worked for my stuff and no one is having away with it.

 

[Wouter]

If the criminals have rights when they are breaking the law, what about the rights of decent people who
1. Want to live without having their homes burgled
2. Want to live without having their possessions stolen or smashed
3. Want to live without fear?

This is one thing I genuinely don't understand. Everyone talks about the rights of the person breaking the law but seem to ignore the rights of the victims

Since when do people talk more about that? They usually talk about what you're saying.
Almost no one talks about the rights of people who break the law. Read this thread, 90% of all posts is about how you should be allowed to mangle everyone who tries to steal stuff from you.

Why would anyone want to do that? I've worked for my stuff and no one is having away with it.

Because if your dead you have no stuff at all.

 

[Kevin Falconer]

You only get the protections of belonging to a society as long as you adhere to the rules of that society. If you choose to ignore one law and break into someone's house, you can't expect the protection of other laws that would stop the homeowner from putting a pick axe through your skull. Sorry. You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[Gunge]

Because if your dead you have no stuff at all.

Unless I'm the guy with the shotgun, protecting my stuff. In which case I'd fully expect the law to be on my side, seeing as I did not start the sequence of events which led me to use it.

 

[Clint]

Yeah and unless you're vinny Jones you would be holding your shooter with two hands so...if it didn't fire or you ran out of ammo or you were upon the assailant double quick time I'm afraid a head butt would be the only viable option.

 

[Thumper]

Why would anyone want to do that? I've worked for my stuff and no one is having away with it.

You wouldn't. But it's undoubtedly the more sensible thing to do.

 

[Wouter]

Unless I'm the guy with the shotgun, protecting my stuff. In which case I'd fully expect the law to be on my side, seeing as I did not start the sequence of events which led me to use it.

Seeing as you are in the possession of an illegal shotgun with the intend to shoot someone, don't you feel you have at least some degree of responsibility for the chain of events?

 

[Gunge]

Seeing as you are in the possession of an illegal shotgun with the intend to shoot someone, don't you feel you have at least some degree of responsibility for the chain of events?

No - I'm a farmer and have the legal right. Not really, but the shotgun is just a metaphor for anything that happens to be laying nearby with which to inflict fatal injury to the arsehole who probably wouldn't think twice about doing the same to you, given half a chance.

 

[Wouter]

No - I'm a farmer and have the legal right. Not really, but the shotgun is just a metaphor for anything that happens to be laying nearby with which to inflict fatal injury to the arsehole who probably wouldn't think twice about doing the same to you, given half a chance.

If you are in danger you are well in your rights to do that. That's both the law and the opinion of most people.
However, when the item you use is something clearly designed for that purpose then its reasonable to investigate because it shows intent. Is it really that strange to investigate when someone kills another human being with a weapon?

Also when the robber is not a danger anymore, you should not attack anymore. And this is usually where it goed wrong. It´s always so satisfying to give one for the road, but at that point you really shouldn´t.

Also personally given the change, I'd rather flee than fight burglars. I simply have too much to lose and too little to gain, got people depending on me. Can't go risking my life for a tv.

 

[Pavros]

Read this thread, 90% of all posts is about how you should be allowed to mangle everyone who tries to steal stuff from you.

I was talking about society in general where some people believe that someone who is breaking the law has some rights and has not forfeited them when they made the conscious decision to do something illegal. If 10% of the population agree that criminals have rights when breaking the law, that is a very large number of people.

Also how do you know when a burglar is no longer a threat? When he is curled up on the floor (is he pretending)? When he breaks down in tears? When he is unconscious? When you are holding one of his limbs which you have torn from his lifeless body? I'm not sure if anyone really knows where the line is drawn, apart from the last option which was tongue in cheek.

 

[Saisonator]

He has been arrested on suspicion of murder?
I thought murder had to be premeditated?

 

[Pavros]

He has been arrested on suspicion of murder?
I thought murder had to be premeditated?

As I understand it, if the 'weapon' used was not in it's usual place, then moving it shows that you may have intended to use it as a weapon.
For instance, picking up a cricket bat from the sports equipment left in the hallway as you walked past it, would 'probably' be ok but if you took only the bat up to the bedroom every night and left the rest of the sports equipment in the hallway, then it 'may' show premeditation. I'm not a lawyer but this was an example I was given about 20 years ago so things may have changed.

 

[AdeDunn]

Try asking the police what reasonable force you can use in your own home against intruders. The PC i asked could not give me an answer. Does that comfort anyone.

There's a good reason for that bud, "reasonable force" isn't defined in black and white in law. It's basically up to whoever presides over your prosecution to decide if the force you used was "reasonable". Basically though, it's meant to be the minimum force necessary to protect either your own person, the person of others, or even the person who you are using the force on from harm. There is no amount of force seen as reasonable though when protecting property, only when protecting people. I had to learn the legal side of things when I was a mental health nurse, where you're required to use "reasonable force" on a regular basis in order to protect yourself and others from harm, in the form of restraint.

Saisonator, that would be decided by the court and CPS, not the police. Hence you get arrested on "suspicion of".

Murder is murder, regardless of the reasons you commit it. A life is ended wrongfully, and this is never ever right. Saying that robbing somebody removes your right to that life, well that's valuing property above human life, and that is very very wrong thinking to say the least.

 

[Wouter]

I was talking about society in general where some people believe that someone who is breaking the law has some rights and has not forfeited them when they made the conscious decision to do something illegal. If 10% of the population agree that criminals have rights when breaking the law, that is a very large number of people.

Also how do you know when a burglar is no longer a threat? When he is curled up on the floor (is he pretending)? When he breaks down in tears? When he is unconscious? When you are holding one of his limbs which you have torn from his lifeless body? I'm not sure if anyone really knows where the line is drawn, apart from the last option which was tongue in cheek.

Everyone has rights, always.

How do you know anyone is not a threat? If you bump into me in the street should I be allowed to shoot you? You might have bad intentions.
Its not that difficult, if someone goes down and doesn't come up you walk away. If someone isn't even approaching you, you don't approach them.

Because your rights are being violated doesn't mean you can just straight up murder any criminal. Sometimes **** happens, theres a struggle or whatever and the guy dies. No one cares. But you don't deliberately enter such a situation with the intent of the other guy dying or having serious harm. That would make your crime exceed his.

 

[Pavros]

How do you know anyone is not a threat? If you bump into me in the street should I be allowed to shoot you? You might have bad intentions.

Now you're just being silly - if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, they do not have good intentions. I was not talking about walking down the street and being a mind reader!

When you say 'it's not that difficult, if someone goes down and doesn't come up you walk away', does this mean knock them down, break their legs so they can't stand up or knock them unconscious? See, it means different things to different people.

 

[Kevin Falconer]

I guess you just have to hide in your bedroom and hope that they're not those that like to beat the crap out of the homeowner just because, or set fire to your house because stealing your **** is not quite enough.

 

[Wouter]

Now you're just being silly - if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, they do not have good intentions. I was not talking about walking down the street and being a mind reader!

When you say 'it's not that difficult, if someone goes down and doesn't come up you walk away', does this mean knock them down, break their legs so they can't stand up or knock them unconscious? See, it means different things to different people.

Do you actually believe that you should be allowed to kill anyone who tries to steal your stuff?