Water Chemistry adjustment

[peebee]

My Phoenix Analytical water analysis reports Total Alkalinity as CaCO3, mg/L

Aye, and I can't expect to start on a "one-man band" (and I understand he might start up again soon?). The "as CaCO3" is so prevalent I don't really think it'll change for Alkalinity. So, homebrewers will continue to make mistakes with it. But mistakes will certainly be reduced if I can persuade hordes of brewers to dump useless "Hardness". Even then some water authorities will insist on veiling some very vital brewing water info behind flippin' "Hardness".

To convert from Alkalinity "as CaCO3" to as bicarbonate multiply the "as CaCO3" value by 1.22. The inverse (other way about) is 0.82, else divide by 1.22.

Comes from molar weights of CaCO3 (100) and HCO3 (61). But as there are two bicarbonate ions with calcium (only one carbonate ion), divide the 100 by 2: 61/50=1.22 or 50/61=0.82. And never forget "equivalence" values (i.e. "as") are imaginary, not real (especially remember if dealing with the daft "as CaCO3".



As predicted yesterday my astonishing (to me!) mathematical abilities are waning! My confidence writing out this stuff is going downhill ... I'll be back to "chimp" status very shortly

 

[stripeyjoe]

Isn’t it time to say ‘f**k it’ and look up your nearest Spotless water dispenser?

 

[Sadfield]

Why pay for water that's been stripped of Calcium, Magnesium, Chloride, Sodium and Sulphate, then pay again for the ingredients to replace them? Unnecessary madness. And that's before a debate about local character and global brewing traditions not being built on RO water.

 

[peebee]

Isn’t it time to say ‘f**k it’ and look up your nearest Spotless water dispenser?

You are in ... North London?

You want to dictate to the author of this thread suggesting he uses water intended for cleaning windows? All because he has nicer water than you? Isn't that jealousy?

But you are right in one respect: I wouldn't clean my windows in his water! It'll leave spots!

 

[stripeyjoe]

You want to dictate to the author of this thread suggesting he uses water intended for cleaning windows? All because he has nicer water than you? Isn't that jealousy?

Spotless is just RO water. I dilute my London water with it in various amounts depending on what I’m brewing and what residual alkalinity I’m after. When doing my calcs I start by adding CRS and, if I’m getting too much SO4 or Cl for style I then increase the dilution rate. Finally I add salts to get the right Ca & Mg levels, reducing CRS and increasing dilution if needed. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is, I just use the up and down arrows in Brewfather until I get the profile I want. Can’t say I noticed where the OP was from, my reply was an attempt to get you out of an RA rabbit hole!

Why pay for water that's been stripped of Calcium, Magnesium, Chloride, Sodium and Sulphate,

Other than the petrol to get there it costs me nothing as they have given me around £60 in credit over the last year or two! I’m usually only adding a couple of grams of salts.

 

[peebee]

I'll try that calculated water profile on a favourite bitter recipe I have (Morrell & Co 1889 Bitter ... 45L batch, 11Kg Chavallier Barley Malt). First off, a well mineralised suitable water profile (a Graham Wheeler recommended "Bitter" water profile). Using the Bru'n Water calculator (version 5.5). Firstly, with no water additions:

You can see from this, the water is pretty devoid of minerals ("existing water profile"), except that monstrously high "bicarbonate" content. It's why I can't recommend "RO" water; you'd be starting from a (uncertain) position even further back (except for that bicarbonate, but we can easily deal with that). If I brewed with the water as-is I might expect a mash pH (calculated by Bru'n Water) of 5.84 (yeuck!). The finished beer would display all the feature described in the OP; low ABV from poor mash efficiency, poor clarity, dull flavour, etc.

I'll bump up the minerals but reduce the bicarbonate. Graham Wheeler's profile might be a little "mineralised" compared to the OP suggestions (low Calcium is a typical, and baffling I might add, "American" trait), but I'll repeat this exercise with a typical low mineralised "American" water profile later.

In fact, I'll finish off this post a little later ... I'm being called away.

To be continued ...

 

[peebee]

... Can’t say I noticed where the OP was from, my reply was an attempt to get you out of an RA rabbit hole!

Typical Southerner attitude. They can't imagine there's a whole different world outside their bubble.

"RA", What's that, a misprint or, gawd forbid, "Residual Alkalinity"? If the latter, I can assure @DJDave I shall not be going near that nonsense.

 

[peebee]

First: Moderately mineralised version (Graham Wheeler's "Bitter" water profile). Note even Martin Brungard (well-known American author of Bru'n Water, from which this screenshot is snipped) doesn't get excited by the calcium levels. The box remains green at 177ppm of Calcium. He gets a little more excited about the Chloride and Sulphate quantities (Amber boxes) but I'm quite used to seeing the Red!

I added the salt first (to Sodium level), then the Calcium Chloride (I use the 33% solution sold for cheese making, hence the large amount indicated ... the program "neglects" to switch from displaying "grams" to displaying "ml") to get Chloride level, then Epsom Salt for Magnesium level and Gypsum to get Sulphite levels. Calcium looks after itself.

Then the acid to mop up some of that "Bicarbonate". It only needs less than 3ml of 81% Phosphoric Acid in 35L of mash water. I also acidify the mash water (to pH5.5). I use Phosphoric Acid, but many prefer not to use that and may use the likes of AMS (CRS).

pH 5.33 (predicted by the calculator) is a very healthy mash pH for a Bitter.



Note: No "Alkalinity" phaffing, no diabolical "RA", ... the calculator is doing that, and I don't have to bother myself with it. Just a pH to aim for (but don't chase a pH value when mashing is started ... accept it is what it is and perhaps explore a correction for the next brew).

Next, I'll try a low mineralised profile ...

 

[peebee]

Second: Low mineralised version. This might be more in-tune with a significantly "carbonated" keg bitter (not the Victorian bitter I'm using as an example!). Notice the increased acid to deal with the excess "bicarbonate"? This is due to the low Calcium (although I couldn't keep it as low as 50ppm; the brew might benefit from not be restricted to 50ppm of Calcium)): Calcium isn't itself acidic, but it sets in motion mash reactions that are acidic.

Only scraps of salts in this one! I'll put in some conversions for CaCl2 as not everyone will have 33% solution about (but it has the advantage of obviously not being hygroscopic like the solid stuff):

Anhydrous Calcium Chloride (fresh) (grams) = 33% Solution (millilitres, erronously shown as grams in Bru'n Water) x 33/100
Calcium Chloride Dihydrate (approx!) (grams) = 33% Solution (millilitres, erronously shown as grams in Bru'n Water) x 0.4265

 

[peebee]

@DJDave: Following those demonstration above: I've got to be very suspicious about the claim in the OP that you had mash pH of 5.2!

 

[peebee]

... Can’t say I noticed where the OP was from, my reply was an attempt to get you out of an RA rabbit hole!

Typical Southerner attitude. They can't imagine there's a whole different world outside their bubble.

"RA", What's that, a misprint or, gawd forbid, "Residual Alkalinity"? If the latter, I can assure @DJDave I shall not be going near that nonsense.

Sorry for snapping at you @stripeyjoe. It was less than a month ago when I'd only just started to adapt my ideas to work with "hardwater" scenarios that I wrote (from a different forum):

... Flippin' heck, Severn Trent make this hard! I'm beginning to have some respect for those who choose to use bottled water! ...

(And RO water!).

And I'm still at it! It's the reason I've spent such an unreasonable amount of time on @DJDave's query. I'm attempting to simplify the approach to water for brewing, but the various water companies in England have erected all sorts of barriers with the pathetic information they publish to make such a task flippin' difficult. So, I'm still entrenched in this "Hardness" and "Alkalinity" clap-trap which I'm hoping to save people from (those who want to be saved that is!).

 

[MashBag]

I'm attempting to simplify the approach to water for brewing

Doesn't AMS (with test kit) & DWB solve 99% of the issues?

 

[Galena]

Doesn't using a Salifert kit solve much of this?

 

[peebee]

Doesn't AMS (with test kit) & DWB solve 99% of the issues?

I've mentioned AWS as an alternative to the Phosphoric Acid I was using as an example. DWB undoubtably solves 99% of issues ... provided you are not worried what those issues might be! In the "old days" we could buy "Burtonising salts" from Boots: DWB is very slightly more sophisticated, but the same idea really.

Doesn't using a Salifert kit solve much of this?

If by "this" you mean the twaddle the water companies are putting about, then "yes" I think so. But I can't prove or illustrate it without samples of water from various places ... which isn't going to happen. I couldn't construct a reliable solution to create posts using them. But I've got them in the back of my head to mention if I can't produce a unified way of dealing with naff published water reports.

I think I should be mentioning them to back up some solutions or resolve some situations where otherwise "educated" guessing seems the only way out.

I don't use the kits myself because they are hopeless with soft water. but now I'm trying to extend my views towards hard water ... well ... I'll need to review my prejudices.

 

[Galena]

I don't use the kits myself because they are hopeless with soft water.

Yes, I have soft water, and the difference between 1 drop and two is hard to distinguish but clearly makes a big difference to the results?

 

[stripeyjoe]

I just go by the figures my water report gives, it’s averaged out over the year and I bet they don’t use £20 kits for measuring fish water! My report covers just my local area, says there’s a population of 27,000 so that is roughly 0.3% of the city’s population and just a few square miles.

 

[peebee]

Yes, I have soft water, and the difference between 1 drop and two is hard to distinguish but clearly makes a big difference to the results?

I found out recently it's worse than that!

In some ways better, it's not as bad as I originally thought some years ago, the resolution for the "Alkalinity" test is 5ppm ("as CaCO3" ... nash, grr) not 30ppm as I originally thought, but the sample must be purged of any dissolved CO2 or it mucks up the result. I've somewhere between 5 and 15ppm, yet a single drop of reagent will send the solution clear (or pink isn't it?).

I reckon you need alkalinity of over 100ppm ("as CaCO3" ... arggg ... no scratch all that) ... I reckon you need alkalinity of over 125ppm ("as HCO3") before the "Alkalinity" kit is useful (i.e. you can ignore the CO2).

 

[MashBag]

I just go by the figures my water report gives, it’s averaged out over the year and I bet they don’t use £20 kits for measuring fish water! My report covers just my local area, says there’s a population of 27,000 so that is roughly 0.3% of the city’s population and just a few square miles.

You can get a range of digital testers from hanna instruments including freshwater alkalinity.

I didn't, because I think I can get close enough without.


https://allthingsaquatic.co.uk/prod...9&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign

 

[stripeyjoe]

You can get a range of digital testers from hanna instruments including freshwater alkalinity.

I didn't, because I think I can get close enough without.


https://allthingsaquatic.co.uk/prod...9&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign

I’d imagine the ones Thames Water use are several leagues above what I could afford.

 

[Galena]

I’d imagine the ones Thames Water use are several leagues above what I could afford.

That doesn't mean an affordable one is not perfectly adequate