So....if some of us were lucky enough to understand strangesteves water advice and use the Salifert kits for our own supply....we might be batting in the right direction?
Water Chemistry adjustment
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peebee
Out of Control
Oh dear.
We're wandering away from what I'm trying to preach. I'm sorry if I'm failing folk?
I'll try once more:
Why do you want an alkalinity tester? What do you think it is testing?
In most drinking water (all drinking water in the UK and probably most of the world too), "Alkalinity" is down to "bicarbonate". Carbonate too, but it hardly gets a look in at the pHs we prefer our drinking water. Alkalinity can be due to other things prominent in the likes of sewerage and so forth. We can ignore them; they are not of any concern to us. "Alkalinity" is whatever delays acids from dropping the pH of water. It has nothing to do with hardness, but in drinking water supplies so-called "temporary hardness" and "Alkalinity" are the same thing. Bicarbonates (calcium bicarbonate and magnesium bicarbonate that is) are responsible for "temporary hardness" but the bicarbonate bit (and carbonate if present) doesn't actually contribute to hardness ... the "bicarbonate" is just what facilitates the removal of hardness ("hardness" equals multi-valent metal ions to be nerdy).
So, for brewing you only need keep tabs on bicarbonates. That does not require expensive instruments or extensive knowledge of "Alkalinity". In fact, all the knowledge required from "Alkalinity" gets packaged into brewing water calculators, so all you need is the figures for bicarbonate (ppm usually) to plug into a calculator (and many don't cost much, some are free!) and away you go.
However, I might now be in danger of assassination for breaking the code of the "guild of wanna-be brewing water chemists", although I was never a member anyway.
We're wandering away from what I'm trying to preach. I'm sorry if I'm failing folk?
I'll try once more:
Why do you want an alkalinity tester? What do you think it is testing?
In most drinking water (all drinking water in the UK and probably most of the world too), "Alkalinity" is down to "bicarbonate". Carbonate too, but it hardly gets a look in at the pHs we prefer our drinking water. Alkalinity can be due to other things prominent in the likes of sewerage and so forth. We can ignore them; they are not of any concern to us. "Alkalinity" is whatever delays acids from dropping the pH of water. It has nothing to do with hardness, but in drinking water supplies so-called "temporary hardness" and "Alkalinity" are the same thing. Bicarbonates (calcium bicarbonate and magnesium bicarbonate that is) are responsible for "temporary hardness" but the bicarbonate bit (and carbonate if present) doesn't actually contribute to hardness ... the "bicarbonate" is just what facilitates the removal of hardness ("hardness" equals multi-valent metal ions to be nerdy).
So, for brewing you only need keep tabs on bicarbonates. That does not require expensive instruments or extensive knowledge of "Alkalinity". In fact, all the knowledge required from "Alkalinity" gets packaged into brewing water calculators, so all you need is the figures for bicarbonate (ppm usually) to plug into a calculator (and many don't cost much, some are free!) and away you go.
However, I might now be in danger of assassination for breaking the code of the "guild of wanna-be brewing water chemists", although I was never a member anyway.
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Oh,poo!
peebee
Out of Control
No, no, no. I said we could ignore the likes of sewerage ...
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The hanna alkalinity tester is £70 ish.
I have a pH pen and a TDS pen about a £10 each. But to be honest, once you get your eye in pool testing kits are good enough.
I have 200ppm hard water that I am knocking down.
@peebee I do think you are over-thinking this (in context). In my humblest opinion I think most guys & gals just want to improve their water.
Working through the math, with AMS and DWB with their water report will be enough. Enough of a headful and enough of a solution.
I have helped a few. I am not a water chemist
Please be careful to not frighten people into thinking they can't get to grips with it. Because that will rob them of the chance to improve their beer.
There are times when we need a car to get to the shops, a formula 1 track car is probably not the best option
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Choices are down to person not opinion.
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“typical southerner attitude” Prejudice and utter rubbish. You are better than that.
Galena
Landlord.
I use Brewfather for my water adjustments, like other water calculators afaik it requires you input HCO3 ppm.
To my minimal knowledge this is calculated by multiplying alkalinity "as CaCO3" x 1.22
So that is why I require alkalinity, whether that be from a water analysis or from a tester?
Am I wrong?
Sadfield
Landlord.
True. You can do whatever you like, I'm not stopping you. You should learn to understand what a question is, though, as I merely asked, why would anyone want to pay to fully remove and then replace minerals?
The OP's source water has less minerals than their target. What was wrong with the minerals in it? Why would spotless water be a better option? Which was what was suggested.
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peebee
Out of Control
@MashBag: I can never tell if you are playing "devil's advocate" or what? Anyhow, I'll play along as it does cover useful points (again!):
"200ppm hard water" ... yeah, I'm sure that's just to wind me up! Flippin' "Hardness", like what does that phrase suggest? No units expressed, but almost certainly is "common or garden" "as CaCO3". There has to be units because "Hardness" expresses a range of different components: Calcium and Magnesium being commonest, with carbonate/bicarbonate playing a manager role from the touchline. And on the subject of carbonate/bicarbonate; no indication of type of hardness? "Temporary" is the most useful and can be the most prominent as in this thread started by @DJDave . The other is "Permanent" hardness which if added to "Temporary Hardness" (it can just be added if expressed in the same units) amounts to "Total Hardness" from which can be estimated the most common constituents, Calcium and Magnesium (accounts for over 99% of "Hardness" in UK drinking water), but "Hardness" doesn't indicate the actual split of constituents. "Hardness" is pretty useless for the brewer. (Boring repetition, but its handy for me to consolidate this stuff in me head).
TDS pen: Cheap ones are quite inaccurate, and the actual factor (to convert the conductivity they measure to "total dissolved solids") does change depending on circumstances. But useful to alert you of big changes and some people do experience substantial changes when the water company switches the source of the water they deliver (often without warning).
pH pen: Probably vital for confirming mash pH! But they must be looked after. They should be capable of being recalibrated, preferably to at least "two point" (with pH4 and 7 calibration fluids), and probably recalibrated before every session. pH probes do drift, and eventually fail (within about two years, i.e. some don't last six months!).
Alkalinity Tester: How deep are your pockets? Deeper than mine (I won't have one). They are hopefully accurate at that price! They don't provide anything that can't be worked out for zero cost. But they can provide confirmation on-the-day, handy if you suffer wild swings of alkalinity. For the price you could elect to have the titration equipment to "do-it-yourself" (looking for a titration endpoint of pH4.5 and expressing the result as by far the commonest constituent of alkalinity in UK drinking water: "bicarbonate").
"200ppm hard water" ... yeah, I'm sure that's just to wind me up! Flippin' "Hardness", like what does that phrase suggest? No units expressed, but almost certainly is "common or garden" "as CaCO3". There has to be units because "Hardness" expresses a range of different components: Calcium and Magnesium being commonest, with carbonate/bicarbonate playing a manager role from the touchline. And on the subject of carbonate/bicarbonate; no indication of type of hardness? "Temporary" is the most useful and can be the most prominent as in this thread started by @DJDave . The other is "Permanent" hardness which if added to "Temporary Hardness" (it can just be added if expressed in the same units) amounts to "Total Hardness" from which can be estimated the most common constituents, Calcium and Magnesium (accounts for over 99% of "Hardness" in UK drinking water), but "Hardness" doesn't indicate the actual split of constituents. "Hardness" is pretty useless for the brewer. (Boring repetition, but its handy for me to consolidate this stuff in me head).
TDS pen: Cheap ones are quite inaccurate, and the actual factor (to convert the conductivity they measure to "total dissolved solids") does change depending on circumstances. But useful to alert you of big changes and some people do experience substantial changes when the water company switches the source of the water they deliver (often without warning).
pH pen: Probably vital for confirming mash pH! But they must be looked after. They should be capable of being recalibrated, preferably to at least "two point" (with pH4 and 7 calibration fluids), and probably recalibrated before every session. pH probes do drift, and eventually fail (within about two years, i.e. some don't last six months!).
Alkalinity Tester: How deep are your pockets? Deeper than mine (I won't have one). They are hopefully accurate at that price! They don't provide anything that can't be worked out for zero cost. But they can provide confirmation on-the-day, handy if you suffer wild swings of alkalinity. For the price you could elect to have the titration equipment to "do-it-yourself" (looking for a titration endpoint of pH4.5 and expressing the result as by far the commonest constituent of alkalinity in UK drinking water: "bicarbonate").
peebee
Out of Control
Aww, not fair! I've already apologised for that!
peebee
Out of Control
Hoy! That's cheating! Radically changing your post by editing it later. But I've noticed... @peebee I do think you are over-thinking this (in context). In my humblest opinion I think most guys & gals just want to improve their water.
Working through the math, with AMS and DWB with their water report will be enough. Enough of a headful and enough of a solution.
I have helped a few. I am not a water chemist
Please be careful to not frighten people into thinking they can't get to grips with it. Because that will rob them of the chance to improve their beer.
There are times when we need a car to get to the shops, a formula 1 track car is probably not the best option
I'm actually trying to simplify all the B.S. that's got attached to brewing water. But that does mean having to take on all the drivel from various parts of Britian so I can present a "unified" approach. I got fed up with being told what to do by the majority "hard water wallowers" who have no idea how to handle the soft water I deal with, but I don't want to make the same mistake and am therefore immersing myself in the hard water stories. I can't "simplify" until I understand properly what all the drivel that is about it.
On my list of things to be rid of is "Hardness" and "as CaCO3". And also reduce "Alkalinity" to something going on in the background that doesn't really need any understanding (apart from "it's there"). Whereas you've come along with a number of incomplete statements (like "I have 200ppm hard water"). Who is actually the scariest?
I can't guarantee coming up with a "unified, simple" approach, but I can try!
[EDIT: "... incomplete statements (like "I have 200ppm hard water")". That wasn't constructive criticism, so I'll correct that ... "I have 200ppm (Total, as CaCO3), so "hard" water, which is as much value as a chocolate fireguard, so I won't mention it again."]
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peebee
Out of Control
No! You have "alkalinity" in ppm as CaCO3 (yak!) and want "bicarbonate" so it's perfectly reasonable to multiply "as CaCO3" by 1.22 to get it,
It might seen weird to remove the Ca and yet multiply by more than one, but you need two HCO3+ (bicarbonate ions) in place of one CO3++ ions. The additional is "materialised" from water and carbon dioxide. (It's not really "materialised", the CaCO3 never existed! It's an "equivalence" i.e. "pretend", for convenience only).
(I must talk down a bit or @MashBag will clobber me again).
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Radically? You sureRadically changing your post by editing it later. But I've noticed
Typos and making sure I didn't offend you more like.
On a side issue I do wonder if AI is actually anything to worry about, when I see the utter ***** my phone pedicures.
Seriously. Are we approaching this in the wrong way? Perhaps rather than a unified approach, what we need is a glossary of all the drivel and what it really means then what to do about it.
Is it 4 or 5 columns in a spreadsheet with drivel listed down the side?
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Wow. I am sure I typed ***** there and the Chippies AI replaced it with *****.
Let's see...
Let's see...
Birdsnestbrewery
Well-Known Member
I have recently begun using AWS and DWB based on my water report (Anglian water). So far I am happy. But can't help thinking I might be missing or misunderstanding something or many things. My brain stubbornly gets confused every time I try to get into this so I am saving this thread and @peebee 's explanations until I have a free day!
peebee
Out of Control
They are. But then why are you expressing personal choices as opinions on a forum?
Anyway, that minor digression isn't why I started this post. Something more positive! Those objections I made to "Spotless Water" were, I'm now finding, really connected to inefficient household RO units, not the commercial units like "Spotless Water" use. I'm trying to establish a "universal" easy-peasy solution to brewing water manipulations, and cheap "Spotless Water" seems to be suggesting itself as a good tool to get this in some cases ... not as a starting point, I'll stick to tap water with its naturally occurring mineral content for that. But it is becoming obvious I need a "dilutant" to create some profiles and "Spotless Water" seems to be an excellent candidate. Certainly, more sustainable than plastic bottles of water being shifted about the country in lorries. Or "distilled" and "deionised" water prepared in some dingy garage somewhere or other.
So, I concede!
But if anyone takes this as it's okay to suggest "soft" water uses use RO water instead, or even "moderately hard" water users as has been the case in this thread (by @DJDave), then I'm still going to turn nasty!
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Excellent post what it the tipping point?
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Me too. (AMS, DWB and water is Anglian)
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peebee
Out of Control
No, I don't think so?
Most people seem to be handling basics okay (Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Chloride and Sulphate ions). Okay, some water companies completely fail to provide useful data, even no Calcium and Magnesium figures which brewers want! But I reckon the biggest problem is brewers being presented with quite inappropriate information and being guided to think they need to use it!
Two "items" I'm repeatedly saying I want to see given the chop because they create the confused ideas people get in their heads (namely arcane "Hardness" and "as CaCO3"). The problem I've got is some water companies tie up basic information (especially Calcium and Magnesium figures) in the claptrap I want to see gone. And "as CaCO3" is a useful tool to those few that understand it ... but those few don't need my ramblings to get on with what they do.
The third item is "Alkalinity". A big subject (covering way more than brewers can make practical use of) that many homebrewers believe they must understand! I would like to see that out of people's hair and out-of-sight. Just following "bicarbonate" ions in the same way as basics like "chloride", etc. will deal with "alkalinity". "Alkalinity (which will be used to predict mash pH) is delegated to a suitable calculator. But, same problem as above, some water companies tie up basic information covering bicarbonate in the claptrap I want to see gone.
I'm going to end telling people that they don't need this-and-that, then tell them they need the same "this-and-that" to get the information they do need!
