Water addition question - soft Scottish water

[Blinky]

Im having problems getting a good pale ale brew - they all tend to come out tasting the same, soft, fruity but nothing more than that, I mean you would be hard pressed to even say what hops were in it! I have been using an Excel spreadsheet calc that somebody added my water report into a few years ago but I thought I would look again. This time Im using the calc on this site and plugged in my figures from scottish water. Im just wondering if somebody can sanity check it for me! It seems to be saying I should add 14.6g of Gypsum, 5.2 of Epson and 1.5 of Table Salt to brew an IPA. Thats a lot more than Ive been using of Gypsum, and might be where Im going wrong!
My water report has the following:

So plugging it all in, I get the below additions for an IPA - Does this look correct (Im sure it is, just want to double check!)

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Just my two-penneth but before trying the water additions it might be worth trying a couple of other things to get more differentiation/character into the beer. Complete apologies if you’ve already tried these!

1) substitute 20% of your base grain for something like Munich I or a heritage grain

and/or

2) mash at a lower temperature for longer (try 64° for 1h30)

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Just another thought, have you been able to measure the pH of your mash?

 

[Blinky]

No, I can't measure the pH, I usually add 100g of acid malt to the grain bill though

 

[Sadfield]

You definitely need some calcium in your water, and I'd make it priority over anything else, it's critical both to mashing and fermentation. 50ppm is considered the minimum. So Gypsum is the way to go.

https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Calcium

If I've done my maths correctly 14g in 28L should be around 140ppm Calcium and 330ppm Sulphate. Which is in line with Graham Wheelers Dry Pale Ale profile, Bru'nwaters Pale Ale Profile and less than what Murphy's advise for a Bitter.

Looks fine to me.

 

[Blinky]

OK, that's good then, will go with this for my next brew and see how it goes. Thinking of something basic, 95%pale, 5% carapils. Tiny bit of bittering with magnum then loads of whirlpool at 75 degrees. Wondering whether to even drop the dry hop and chuck it all in the whirlpool? I bought a false bottom for the grainfather, so when using the pump, all the work is being filtered through the hops that are on the false bottom, I'm telling myself it's like a hopback!

 

[MashBag]

What is the recipe?

 

[Blinky]

What is the recipe?

 

[Galena]

I have input your water profile into Brewfather with your water volume and 14g Gypsum and 3g Calcium Chloride is about spot on for a nice hoppy IPA.
I would add 3.8 mls Lactic acid to get the pH down to about 5.2 but that is not strictly necessary

 

[Blinky]

Cheers, thanks for confirming, I also usually add 100g of acid malt so that should take the place of the lactic acid

 

[peebee]

That's an interesting one. That water is "soft"!

You can't do that with your "alkalinity" value ... i.e. put in the value for Total Hardness. At a guess you did it because it said "CaCO3"? I've been having a good rant about "CaCO3" and along you've come to show off a good reason why I've been ranting about it! ("CaCO3" is the measurement units used, it doesn't mean "calcium carbonate", of which I can guarantee you haven't any ... nil .... zilch ... in your water).

I'll come back with a proper value for your "Alkalinity" (believe it or not, you have provided enough information to do it!), although you'll be disappointed 'cos it won't be much different as there is so little of anything in your water. But just now, I've got to go for my tea ...


P.S. Don't add any acid. Your water has virtually no "Alkalinity". Your mash pH will drop through the floor.

 

[Blinky]

Thanks for that, will await your reply after tea!
BTW, I accidentally clicked report instead of quote so if you get anything from the mods, it's my fault!

Thanks for the heads up - Admin

 

[Galena]

Well, as his hardness degrees French is 1.79, that would make alkalinity as CaCO3 as 17.9 wouldn't it?
Bicarbonate is 17.9 x 1.22 = 21.88 ??

 

[DocAnna]

P.S. Don't add any acid. Your water has virtually no "Alkalinity". Your mash pH will drop through the floor.

I've water similar to @Blinky and the water does need a small of acidification to reduce the pH and the malt does buffer the pH..

 

[Brew_DD2]

I've water similar to @Blinky and the water does need a small of acidification to reduce the pH and the malt does buffer the pH..

I'm the same Anna. I'd wager our water is quite similar (without looking at the reports) and I find I still need to add a touch of acid to the mash. A light touch definitely required water this soft though.

I have to say that I love having water that is essentially a blank canvas to work with.

 

[DocAnna]

I'm the same Anna. I'd wager our water is quite similar (without looking at the reports) and I find I still need to add a touch of acid to the mash. A light touch definitely required water this soft though.

I have to say that I love having water that is essentially a blank canvas to work with.

I've just checked back and I reckon our water has even lower hardness....how low can we go

Ions ppm	pH	Hardness	Ca	Mg	Cl	SO4	Alkalinity
Test Water	7.4	10	3	2	9	4	7 as CaCO3

It does need some acid though as you can see from the pH

 

[peebee]

BTW, I accidentally clicked report instead of quote so if you get anything from the mods, it's my fault!

Don't worry, they are used to reports about me.

Anyhow, sorry I'm late, but it was a long teatime.

Let's start with: I don't like Water Hardness, and I especially don't like how it's measured ... in units of "as CaCO3". Originally measured by how well soap suds stood up to the water, but now measures as how much "multi-valent metal ions" is in the water. About 99% and more of these "multi-valent metal ions" in UK (and no doubt elsewhere) is Calcium and Magnesium. So, we'll start by converting the reporting units for these (ppm, or aka. "mg Ca\Mg /l") or (4.49x2.5) + (1.62x4.1) = 11.22 + 6.64 = 17.86ppm as CaCO3. Otherwise known as Total Hardness ... Crikey, the guys writing your water report must have the same equations! Those "other" numbers converted the component ions into "CaCO3", including the Magnesium ions!

You should be able to see why I dislike these "pretend" substances (aka. "equivalents"), at least when they are to be shared with untrained members of the public: Confusion and mistakes are the obvious consequences. Anyhow I've promised to convert to "Alkalinity" so let's get on with it ...

BTW: I'm an untrained member of the public, just one that's really peeved about being caught out by this nonsense.

Actually, this next step is tougher than I was remembering, i.e. splitting "total hardness" into "permanent hardness" and "temporary hardness". In this situation "temporary hardness" is "alkalinity", in "as CaCO3", but I can easily convert that to "as HCO3" (bicarbonate) which can be a lot easier to grasp. It's late, I appear to be collecting replies I should review, and whatever the answer, it's not going to make significant differences ... there really does appear to be next to nothing in your water (you even got a third of the Calcium that's in my water and I thought my water was soft).

Right, there's banging on the floorboards from upstairs (and announcements on "Alexa"!) ... I'm being "told" by my resident carer! Good night!

 

[Blinky]

Ah! Right thanks for the explanation I see what you mean now! So what figure should I use or is it that low that I just leave it blank?

 

[peebee]

Yaawnnn ... now where was I after last night ... ah yes, splitting off "temporary hardness" to estimate "Alkalinity":

There has to be a bit of guessing with this, but as you've got such "soft" water a little error isn't going to make any difference. So.

Three common salts we're looking for ... Sulphates and Chlorides making up most "permanent hardness" and the remainder will be bicarbonate for which we haven't got a value yet ("temporary hardness" or, in this case, "alkalinity"). Can't be bothered with all that maths this early in the morning so I'll use the iterative technique (aka. "suck-it-an'-see"). The calculator I'm using is "Bru'n Water). It's not a free calculator, but you chose how much to pay for it (or that was the case, I'm not aware of it changing?).

The blue cells are manually entered values, the yellow, calculated. The "Reported pH" can be anything when below 8.0 (the recommended is 6, but doesn't look very good!). The "Nitrate" is a guess, but there's always some, and with no intensive agriculture, it's not very much (not important, but helps get other guesses in the right place). I'll come back with an example recipe in a mo ...

 

[peebee]

BTW: You can see that "1.22" at work that @Galena mentioned earlier. Alkalinity x 1.22 = Bicarbonate (also an "equivalent", but not one as daft as that "as CaCO3"). His only hiccup was getting tangled up by that hardness nonsense. It's that easy mistake I'm trying to dispel. Your (@Blinky) post just happens to have come in during that campaign of mine ... I don't normally make a habit of answering these water queries (I couldn't even do them a few weeks ago!).