Water addition question - soft Scottish water

[Sadfield]

It appears though that the grain used makes a very significant contribution to the overall salts balance and I suspect that is what underlies some of the mixed ideas on 1:1 to 1:3 or greater sulphate to chloride ratios.

This suggests it is about 75% from grain and 25% water.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287714138_Minerals_in_beer
Without access to the whole paper, I do wonder if this Lager based (and low in water minerals) like so much beer research.

Although, I do think people worry too much about mineral levels, as American sources of information are always very conservative in this regard.

Sodium + chloride is pretty good flavour enhancer.

 

[Blinky]

You can get everything you need from the standard water report and the water quality and water hardness report

 

[Mash Monster]

You can get everything you need from the standard water report and the water quality and water hardness report

I had my water independently checked (as well as my home RO water) just out of curiosity and whilst there were differences with my published water report from Anglian water it was there or thereabouts. However my water can change from day to day and although I use Brewfather for my calculations I’m not too precious over it and my beer seems to be better for it.

 

[Galena]

You can get everything you need from the standard water report and the water quality and water hardness report

Well, SevernTrent do not publish Calcium or magnesium levels or alkalinity. So that makes getting this information not so simple.
Hardness is reported as Degrees Clarke, Degrees French or Degrees German so a certain amount of calculation is required.
They state on the report "Information is based on your normal water source. We may occasionally need to temporarily change the source of your supply for operational reasons." so this makes it less reliable.

I always like to have an occasional analysis from Pheonix and then double check against Salifert and ST water report.

 

[Galena]

Incidentally I found this a good read How to read a water report although he states you are unlikely to come across degrees French outside of France, which is untrue as SevernTrent give this along with degrees Clarke and degrees German. I use French because the maths are easy.

 

[DocAnna]

I agree I am scratching my head also over water additions . I was about to start adding additions to my water using Scottish Water report for my area Turret A which is obviously available online .Though it looks like I need to do a bit more research into this .
Is it worth getting a Water Report done? Or just go with what is available

I'm on Turret A as well, and had a separate water analysis report done.... which confirmed the Scottish water report that's there was hardly anything in it. There was really no significant difference in the Scottish report and my local analysis.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...-water-treatment-in-post-1.64822/post-1027072

 

[peebee]

You can get everything you need from the standard water report and the water quality and water hardness report

This actually high-lights how I'm failing in my quest to make water chemistry simpler for all homebrewers!

I've originally come on to this thread as a breather away from the East/SE England water threads. They've got some pretty nasty hard waters down there, and I wanted to test my methods against it. I'm in N. Wales; soft water, but I've always lived in soft water areas (including Scotland!). My methods are to only being concerned with the six common ions: Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulphate ... and Bicarbonate. NO water hardness at all, NO related "as CaCO3" "pretend" ("equivalence") cobblers ... those subjects are riddled in traps that have people getting all the wrong ideas and making ludicrous mistakes. And no "Alkalinity" either: an important subject (its used to predict the mash pH), but one we can easily delegate to brewing water calculators ... thus, we are saved from learning loads of detail we will never need and avoid getting embroiled in details the eggheads can't agree on, let alone us!

But my holiday from southern England water problems pretty quickly turned into the same mire as down south, though the impact was mitigated by the water having naff all in it. I was having to get a "bicarbonate" value using the same incomprehensible "Hardness" claptrap I'm suggesting no-one uses! Looking back at the earlier posts I'm sure I can find examples of how the tripe can catch you out ... hang on, this is where @Theoriginalrich got that mysterious "22ppm HCO3" from! I'll be back shortly; I just need to sort this out ... (@Galena! ... What's this " Bicarbonate is 17.9 x 1.22 = 21.88 ??" about? Hold out your hand, I'm going to whack it with this ruler!). Actually, that all been sorted out, but an excellent example of this "Hardness/"as CaCO3" bull**** creating confusion (@Galena doesn't like making mistakes!).

I did work out a bicarbonate figure by-the-way .... 16.2 ppm, or 13.3 ppm "as CaCO3" if anything (like "Alkalinity") must be presented in that gawd awful way. Most of this "bicarbonate" (if not all) will probably be added by the water company in an effort to protect their pipes from corrosion.

So, the problem I've got in simplifying this damn subject is mainly due to the awful way the basic information is provided to us. I think I'll have to create yet another flippin' spread sheet to easily extract these basic values. The authors of the water calculators should do this, I'm currently looking at the "Brewer's Friend" offering, and it certainly makes an attempt, but it seems to me the authors of this "clever stuff" often forget they are talking to the General Public. I have a small advantage in this regard: I need to package up what I'm learning so it remains accessible to me in a couple of months ... after I've forgotten all this! I'll never make it to being a "clever ****", I just get these fleeting previews of what it might be like. Google and Excel are my real memory!

 

[peebee]

I'm on Turret A as well, and had a separate water analysis report done. ...

I've been looking at that report. The "Alkalinity" (or "bicarbonate") was possibly like the water company's figures, but by the time it gets to your tap much of the "Alkalinity" will have been consumed by the acid water ... which is why the water company is probably adding it; to protect their pipes! "Probably", not certainly! You'd have to ask them.

Zero Nitrates! I was convinced there would be at least some (I guessed 5ppm for @Blinky's query, using it to help judge a "bicarbonate" figure). Won't make any significant difference, that first issue of decreasing bicarbonate would completely mask the "nitrate" guessing. There does have to be some (lightening fixes nitrogen as nitrates in rainwater) but perhaps I'm wildly over estimating?

But both issues combined ... perhaps I should review how I'm "guessing" bicarbonate values?

 

[Galena]

This actually high-lights how I'm failing in my quest to make water chemistry simpler for all homebrewers!

No sh!t Sherlock!
We want results, not excuses, come back when you have the solution.

It may be worth you looking at Kaiser Water Calculator the spreadsheet is linked to lower down this linked page. He does demonstrate all his calcs and water stats. Just a thought.

 

[peebee]

No sh!t Sherlock!
We want results, not excuses, come back when you have the solution.
...

I have to immerse myself in all these threads, so I know what I'm dealing with. So hard luck, I'll continue appearing. And for that slight, you can expect me to pick out your posts for more ridicule too.

... It may be worth you looking at Kaiser Water Calculator the spreadsheet is linked to lower down this linked page. He does demonstrate all his calcs and water stats. Just a thought.

Aye, by Kai Troester. Smart cookie for sure. He's also behind the Brewer's Freind water calculator. I'm aware of his "Kaiser Water Calculator", but I don't have to go looking for it now ... Thanks.

 

[Mash Monster]

Well, SevernTrent do not publish Calcium or magnesium levels or alkalinity. So that makes getting this information not so simple.
Hardness is reported as Degrees Clarke, Degrees French or Degrees German so a certain amount of calculation is required.
They state on the report "Information is based on your normal water source. We may occasionally need to temporarily change the source of your supply for operational reasons." so this makes it less reliable.

I always like to have an occasional analysis from Pheonix and then double check against Salifert and ST water report.

I had the same from Anglian a couple of years back I telephoned them and asked for the missing figures they put me through to an analyst who gave me the numbers I required

 

[peebee]

I've been looking at that report. The "Alkalinity" (or "bicarbonate") was possibly like the water company's figures, but by the time it gets to your tap much of the "Alkalinity" will have been consumed by the acid water ... which is why the water company is probably adding it; to protect their pipes! "Probably", not certainly! You'd have to ask them.

Zero Nitrates! I was convinced there would be at least some (I guessed 5ppm for @Blinky's query, using it to help judge a "bicarbonate" figure). Won't make any significant difference, that first issue of decreasing bicarbonate would completely mask the "nitrate" guessing. There does have to be some (lightening fixes nitrogen as nitrates in rainwater) but perhaps I'm wildly over estimating?

But both issues combined ... perhaps I should review how I'm "guessing" bicarbonate values?

Something I forgot to mention:

To resolve this "Alkalinity" dilemma, don't get tempted by those Salifert test kits. Originally, I didn't think they had the resolution (increments of about 5ppm "as CaCO3"), but apparently, it's much worse than that reason. Dissolved CO2 (creating Carbonic Acid) will ensure the colour changes much earlier than expected in these low Alkalinity waters. My own water will create the colour change with only one drop of reagent. What can I possibly glean from that. The Water Company suggests an Alkalinity of 13.5. I should get two or three drops in? I don't, just one.

 

[Sadfield]

The way to simplify water treatment is to **** the maths, ppms and complex calculators off. Think in terms of what you want the water to do rather than what numbers you need to achieve.

Find out what is in your water. Learn what calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, chloride, Sulphate and bicarbonate actually do to beer. Then add and adjust by trial and error. In the same way you learn what different hops and malts do. Record everything. Once armed with practical application, then you can approach things in detail.

 

[peebee]

The way to simplify water treatment is to **** the maths, ppms and complex calculators off.

Do you think I haven't tried that approach? Come on ... people are not going to do that, not when their homebrew heroes are advising the opposite. Do you think people hold you in such high esteem that they'll stop listening to everyone else? I know exactly the esteem I'm given (... em ... I think I might find it under that rock over there?). Then you go on with:

Learn what calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, chloride, Sulphate and bicarbonate actually do to beer.

How long should they go on with the learning? A day? ... A week? .... A year? Homebrewers want results NOW!

I know my attempts at simplifying water chemistry has not gone well. It's bogging down in maths, "equivalents", etc., exactly the opposite to what I wanted to achieve. So, I'll change tack and approach it with something that might work.

Once the infatuation with "water" is dampened down, perhaps we'll get more useful discussions on beer?

 

[Sadfield]

Do you think people hold you in such high esteem that they'll stop listening to everyone else?

Hell no. It was just an observation on the subject. That's there's another approach to water treatment. You don't need to understand or employ the tinseth formula to hop a beer, water doesn't need to be any different. I'm not, and certainly won't be embarking on any sort of mission, or deterring anyone from listening to experts/heroes*. Or, change the way people do it. It's just a way in.

*Delete as applicable.

How long should they go on with the learning? A day? ... A week? .... A year? Homebrewers want results NOW!

Could be enough as just reading a book or website, or couple of brews to apply that learning.

 

[peebee]

I'm on Turret A as well, and had a separate water analysis report done...

I've been looking at that report. The "Alkalinity" (or "bicarbonate") was possibly like the water company's figures, but by the time it gets to your tap much of the "Alkalinity" will have been consumed by the acid water ... which is why the water company is probably adding it; to protect their pipes! "Probably", not certainly! You'd have to ask them. ...

I've had a bit of an Internet hunt about this: The dropping off of alkalinity levels the further you get from the treatment works.

I'm guessing it does happen (in "soft" waters treated to reduce acidity of the otherwise corrosive acid moorland water), but I'm not finding any writings on the subject that might "quantify" it. (@DocAnna's water reports have evidence of it, I've had evidence of it in my reports too).

Anyone do any better?



On a separate issue (but connected with what I'm trying to put together): Has anyone come across studies of "Nitrates" in water, i.e. the differences between remote, uninhabited, moorland water sources and sources in areas of intensive agriculture and habitation? Nitrate has little/no impact on brewing, but it is useful to assist assumptions of mineral amounts that can have a bearing on brewing (I'm talking of alkalinity again).

 

[Sadfield]

@peebee The water report averages are compiled from multiple tests, not necessarily at source, so potentially the above gets averaged out.

 

[hop-a-long]

How long should they go on with the learning? A day? ... A week? .... A year? Homebrewers want results NOW!

Makes me wonder if you've got the right hobby. If anything homebrewing has thought me, you need PATIENCE!

 

[peebee]

@Sadfield: That's not what I'm after though.

The "Alkalinity" drop-off is to explain why private analysis of tap water (end-user experience) is very different (much lower) to analysis at source (water company). It's no doubt a "soft" water thing; it has little bearing on folk in harder water areas.

And Nitrates are very much different between the types of location mentioned, but how might that be approximated? I.E. How does it generally affect people in different areas. [EDIT: E.G. What's the lowest likely ... I'm going to be guessing at 3-5ppm, due solely to natural causes like lightening, what's a low average ... I'll use 10ppm 'cos that's what I get, and what's a high average, I'll be guessing about 30ppm (more?).]

 

[peebee]

Makes me wonder if you've got the right hobby. ...

I wasn't talking about me! I was making a wider comment.