Water prepping before all grain brew advice needed please

[bobukbrewer]

I cannot open the original zip file - please could someone post the values, and is there an advantage to posting attachments as zip files ?

 

[peebee]

I cannot open the original zip file - please could someone post the values, and is there an advantage to posting attachments as zip files ?

Which/who's do you mean? The Anglian Water original one which is answered and dissected and visible through the various follow-up posts? Or the Severn Trent one still waiting further input from @Rogerh? I'll repeat that one below (that original was text-only ... and I see now is up-to-date!):

Hardness Values
For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.
Analysis Typical Value UK/EU Limit Units
Hardness Level Hard No standard applies
Hardness Clark 19.23 No standard applies Degrees Clark
Hardness French 27.47 No standard applies French Degrees
Hardness German 15.38 No standard applies German Degrees
Data is for period 01-October-2022 to 30-September-2023
Water Quality Summary Report
For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.
Analysis Analysis Units No of Results Minimum Result Average Result Maximum Result No of results above PCV limit UK/EU Limit
1,2-Dichloroethane µg/l 11 <0.24 <0.24 <0.24 0 3
Aluminium µg/l 6 <14 <14 <14 0 200
Ammonium mg/l 17 <0.022 <0.035 <0.064 0 0.5
Antimony µg/l 6 0.04 0.07 0.08 0 5
Arsenic µg/l 6 2.71 5.62 7.40 0 10
Benzene µg/l 11 <0.06 <0.06 <0.06 0 1
Benzo-3,4-Pyrene µg/l 6 <0.001 <0.001 <0.001 0 0.01
Boron mg/l 11 <0.011 <0.015 0.020 0 1
Bromate µg/l 6 <0.36 <0.36 <0.36 0 10
Cadmium µg/l 6 <0.02 <0.02 0.03 0 5
Chloride mg/l 11 48.50 78.45 97.10 0 250
Chromium µg/l 6 <0.4 <0.4 0.5 0 50
Clostridium perfringens No. / 100ml 6 0 0 0 0 0
Coliform Bacteria No. / 100ml 24 0 0 0 0 0
Colony Count After 72 Hours at 22ºC No. / 100ml 17 0 10 162 0 No abnormal change
Colour mg/l Pt/Co 17 <0.70 <0.76 <0.80 0 20
Conductivity µS/cm at 20ºC 17 590 606 620 0 2500
Copper mg/l 6 0.0026 0.1336 0.6712 0 2
Cyanide µg/l 11 <5 <5 <5 0 50
E. coli No. / 100ml 24 0 0 0 0 0
Enterococci No. / 100ml 6 0 0 0 0 0
Fluoride mg/l 6 <0.08 <0.09 0.10 0 1.5
Free Chlorine mg/l 24 0.06 0.19 0.28 0 No abnormal change
Iron µg/l 6 <8 <8 <8 0 200
Lead µg/l 6 <0.1 <0.2 0.5 0 10
Manganese µg/l 6 <0.7 <0.7 <0.7 0 50
Mercury µg/l 11 <0.034 <0.034 <0.034 0 1
Nickel µg/l 6 <0.5 <0.9 <1.0 0 20
Nitrate mg/l 6 19.14 22.94 26.90 0 50
Nitrite mg/l 6 <0.003 <0.008 <0.013 0 0.5
Nitrite - Nitrate Calculated - 6 0.38 0.46 0.54 0 <1
Odour Dilution Number 17 0 0 0 0 Acceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
PAH µg/l 6 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0.1
pH pH value 17 7.55 7.62 7.76 0 Min 6.5, Max 9.5
Selenium µg/l 6 0.19 0.24 0.29 0 10
Sodium mg/l 6 36.0 41.1 46.6 0 200
Sulphate mg/l 11 18 25 32 0 250
Taste Dilution Number 17 0 0 0 0 Acceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
Tetrachloroethene and Trichloroethene µg/l 6 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 10
Tetrachloromethane µg/l 6 <0.20 <0.20 <0.20 0 3
Total Organic Carbon mg/l 11 <0.8 <0.8 <0.8 0 No abnormal change
Total Trihalomethanes µg/l 6 1.78 2.39 2.97 0 100
Turbidity NTU 17 <0.12 <0.12 <0.14 0 4

I've highlighted what I could use. Using the "Hardness" value and guessing this value is composed of 9:1 Calcium/Magnesium, I could get the following out of the "Defuddler". But it's really just an illustration of the spreadsheet getting something from seemingly nothing. "Sulphate" and "Chloride" go through some big swings in that report, suggesting this water comes from more than one source (the analysis will switch about from day-to-day).

[EDIT: The poxy "Hardness" value is so-called "French Hardness" times ten ... i.e. 274.7ppm as CaCO3 ... yak!]

 

[RoboBrewBot5000]

I too, have been playing around with water chemistry (beyond the basic campden tabs) and I have found that I have too much of calcium in my water to begin with (I brew lagers mostly) and therefore, even if I dial in the chloride sulphate ratio, to where I want it, I'm still stuck with high calcium. Anyway, my point is, unless you're going to start from a plain base of RO water, in my opinion, adjusting the water to meet a certain profile from the tap water is quite possibly more hassle than it is worth. At least when you are starting out. I'd try and focus on getting the mashing process under control first before worrying too much about water.

The above said, its a very individual journey, and you should do whatever you feel you need to to get enjoyment out if the hobby. It just maybe that by jumping in and trying to do too much, too fast, you may miss some of the 'learning opportunities' that come from changing a variable at a time. Don't be afraid of making beer that doesn't quite hit the mark - you'll be a better brewer because of it.

Finally, for all grain, may I recommend the Greg Hughes recipes. I have brewed a good few from his book and from personal experience, I have found these to be really spot on. You will learn a lot from following the recipes - albeit some on here may point out there are a number of mistakes in the books which can be confusing if you don't know about them.

 

[peebee]

... I'm still stuck with high calcium. Anyway, my point is, unless you're going to start from a plain base of RO water, in my opinion, adjusting the water to meet a certain profile from the tap water is quite possibly more hassle than it is worth. ...

High Calcium is rarely a problem, low Calcium is! (Start getting worried if Calcium is <100ppm). However, high Calcium is often associated with high alkalinity and that high alkalinity needs dealing with.

"... More hassle than it's worth"? Mmm, possibly, but preaching that is too late! Folk are already convinced "water chemistry" is the path to better beer. You either go with the flow, or else people just ignore you! I wrote that "Defuddler" spreadsheet to save folk time figuring out the water so they can spend more time working on the actual beer. People do seem to appreciate being shown how to make a task easier, but often don't appreciate being told they are wasting their time.


High Calcium is an interesting one. As a diversion: Many folk associate high Calcium with high "Hardness". True, the daft modern definition of "Hardness" (which doesn't involve loads of soap!) will go along with this. So, high "Hardness" equals high Calcium ... better do something about it ... ah, here's a "water softener". Using a water softener really does reduce Calcium and "Hardness", but does absolutely nothing to "Alkalinity" which is what is important to beer brewing. In fact, it turns alkalinity creating calcium bicarbonate (only found in solution, never as a solid) into highly soluble sodium bicarbonate. This is a bigger problem in countries that "soften" municipal water supplies, not the UK although there are some very rare spots in the UK where natural sodium-based alkalinity occurs. The "Defuddler" highlights these by turning bits of the "Foetid Mire" lurid colours ("Hardness" values become invalid). From my point of view, another "nail-in-the-coffin" for "Hardness".

The "Alkalinity" text outside the "Foetid Mire" can turn red, but that's because the "Mire" has chemically unbalanced information. "Alkalinity" and "ion mass balancing" is closely linked in the "Defuddler", but that is all taken care of by the spreadsheet (after all, who really wants to have to know about "ion mass balancing"! ).

 

[RoboBrewBot5000]

Haha I don't disagree with any of that in fairness, you are clearly a lot further down the I don't think people are wasting their time by doing this.

personnaly though, I do think when you're first starting out if you don't have other aspects buttoned up, the juice may well not be worth the squeeze...all depends.

To be honest im workinf toward obtaining a better understanding of these things. Eventually ill get to doing an experiment when ive got access to RO, to see how big of a difference it makes.

 

[peebee]

.. still waiting further input from @Rogerh? ...

Don't need to wait, I can just embellish that previous post.

Having zeroed the Calcium, Magnesium and Bicarbonate entries at the top of the spreadsheet, time to dive into the "Foetid Mire" (snorkle optional). Immediately you are met with "Total Hardness". Change the "Source" from "From Live Data" to "Public Reports". The editable option for "Total Hardness" pops up, so enter the value in there (the ST report doesn't provide it as "ppm as CaCO3" but it's the same as 10x the "French Hardness" figure ... 274.7 ppm as CaCO3 in this case.

Just to the left there is the option to "split" the "Hardness" figure into preset ratios (for guesssing!). I've chosen "9:1" but you can have reason to chose something else. Below this option the results are displayed.

Above are two boxes for Calcium and Magnesium (other contributors are possible, but only these two are significant). Switch their "Source" from "Live Data" to "User". Fill in the figures displayed below the "split" option. (Calcium 247.23ppm as CaCO3, and Magnesium 27.47ppm as CaCO3). At the surface of the "Mire" these values are offered as "ppm" (mg/l) rather than "ppm as CaCO3", enter those values into the boxes at the top of the spreadsheet.

Extraction of the "Bicarbonate" value was described in an earlier post. Don't forget to enter "Nitrate" which is quite significant in this report (more cow poo ... or worse!). You can see the result entered into the KH box. At the surface this is transformed into the "Bicarbonate" value that can be transferred to the box at the top of the spreadsheet.

If you have values for Magnesium from the Water Company, enter this in the Magnesium box at the top of the sheet before the "Foetid Mire" stuff and some of the work will be done for you (the Calcium figure can be derived from the Magnesium and "Hardness" figures. It's also possible to use Salifert test kits to derive the Calcium and Magnesium figures (and so not use the "Mire"). You can also use Salifert kits to discover "Alkalinity" ... be careful and make sure it is correctly entered as a "Bicarbonate" value (I think Salifert kits will get the "as CaCO3" value which will need multiplying by 1.22 to be a "Bicarbonate value).

Finally, as this water appears to be sourced from more than one source (TDS meters, although not accurate, can make you aware of such changes) you can have more than one profile to select as appropiate.

 

[peebee]

Which/who's do you mean? The Anglian Water original one which is answered and dissected and visible through the various follow-up posts? ...

Okay, so I'm getting mixed up now. Not two, but three queries ... I was overlooking the author of the original post: @fximpact25 ... Sorry! I'd better go and have a lie down.

 

[bobukbrewer]

Peebee - I have your spreadsheet but it has befuddled me. So a straightforward question, with Ca 78 Mg 9 Na 36 SO4 111 Cl 62 NO3 24
alkalinity 107 pH 7.4 and HARDNESS AS Ca 92
to make a pale bitter 3.8% where do I start with additions ?

it has to be unbefuddled....thanks

 

[peebee]

Peebee - I have your spreadsheet but it has befuddled me. So a straightforward question, with Ca 78 Mg 9 Na 36 SO4 111 Cl 62 NO3 24
alkalinity 107 pH 7.4 and HARDNESS AS Ca 92
to make a pale bitter 3.8% where do I start with additions ?

it has to be unbefuddled....thanks

Hello BobUKbrewer! Glad to be of assistance. Let's see ...

... ?

... !

... %*&**$%

Okay, got it! ... This is a wind-up, isn't it? Who's put you up to it? Hang-on, it's not you! It's someone who's nicked your "identity"? There are forumites here who'd like to make me squirm. But I'm not having it! See!

Well, I can sort of answer it all-the-same:

Everything is there without putting it through the "Defuddler". But it's a very unbalanced analysis (27% out even when treating the "akalinity" figure - 107 - as "ppm as Bicarbonate"). Nitrate is quite high (used only for balancing) but would require a tenth of the 24ppm to get a good balance. Perhaps Cl and/or SO4 is recorded too high?

Finally, if this is BobUKbrewer reading this now ... change your password, I suspect someone as hacked into your acount to get at me

 

[bobukbrewer]

Peebee - it is me and my account is not hacked - it is analysis from Anglian Water. nitrate too high - what can I do about it - adding distilled water 90:10 to tap water is not practicable. Go to anglian water, full water analysis section, and put in postcode NN15 6PU (up to now no hacker would know my postcode)

Are you anywhere near northamptonshire, london. newcastle or A1 between Peterborough and Newcastle ? if so I will shake your hand....

 

[peebee]

@bobukbrewer: Okay! I just decided to revert back to being "cantankerous old git" mode. Being a well-known head case I'm guessing I can get away with it? (Head case = brain damaged ... or brain injured if I'm avoiding non-PC stuff ... which I should be!).

I'm no saint! This water caper, and the junk associated with it, only dawned on me (properly that is) nine months ago when a well-known water chemist (who many of us know) shouted me down for going on about arcane water hardness. I've taken that telling-off to heart, using my seemingly accepted "old git" status (and an ability with spreadsheets!) to push a really easy to apply approach, free of all the complicated, confusing, contradictory, (any other suitable adjectives beginning with "C"?) arcane "Hardness" twaddle.

I've got your postcode now (so have all the hackers!), I'll use it to get your publicly available water report and try and find the imbalance ... the spreadsheet might need some tweaking? And come back with a clearer analysis.

I've picked on you because your query was full of my "trigger words" ("hardness" etc.) and also showed a disregard for my scribbling (this from the spreadsheet's "introduction") ...

First off; what this calculator isn't! It will not calculate the salts to add according to the style of beer you wish to make. Instead, it prepares the data to be entered into such a calculator. Ideally, those calculators that receive the rationalised data put out by the "Defuddler" should be doing the work themselves. But they don't! Instead the homebrewer gets a mish-mash of varying measurements and standards in what can only be a conspiracy to keep brewers dependant on purveyors of "confusing" advice. Water chemistry for brewers is dead simple; don't be told differently!

... that might also need patching and bringing into the Limelight more?

 

[bobukbrewer]

peebee - look forward to your response after you visit anglianwater.co.uk

I am a pedantic old git aged 78 so that outtrumps you

If anglian analyse their water then how can it be out of balance - they just report what the spectrometer outputs

meet up ?

 

[bobukbrewer]

is it allowed to go off forum so as not to bore other posters to death

also what is water hardness - I know my kettle furs up badly after 2 months......

 

[Rogerh]

@peebee Thanks for all your patience and help with this. Although the water report is not the best!!, I feel I have a better understanding of it all now. Think I will get a Murphy's report as well.

Thanks again.

 

[peebee]

@peebee Thanks for all your patience and help with this. Although the water report is not the best!!, I feel I have a better understanding of it all now. Think I will get a Murphy's report as well.

I'm going through the same struggle with Anglian Water for @bobukbrewer. But they are not so bad with the reports, just severely let everyone down with a lack of "Alkalinity" reporting (or anything to easily derive it from). "Alkalinity" can provide the "bicarbonate" value and brewers really do need that. Anglian Water don't help matters by declaring in the "Glossary" of their report:

Alkalinity

Alkalinity is the amount of calcium and magnesium salts dissolved in the water. Known as temporary hardness and removed by boiling.

... that is complete and utter $*&%**$! "Total Hardness" (yak!) "is the amount of calcium and magnesium salts dissolved in the water" (and other metal salts, but they are negligible in drinking water). It's the more "modern" definition of "Hardness" that doesn't involve soap! "Temporary Hardness" would be okay ... in these circumstances it is the same as "Alkalinity", but they don't publish "Temporary Hardness" either (and it can't be reconstructed from "Total Hardness", and it can't be completely removed by boiling).

The greatest achievement of that "Defuddler" spreadsheet is that it will remove reliance on "Hardness". And with it will go all the complex, confusing and contradictory prattle working out water treatment for brewing.

Rather than Murphy's, Neil of Phoenix Analytical offers a water analysis service to us home-brewers. One of the best selling points being: NO WATER HARDNESS!

https://phoenix-analytical.co.uk/
... but your water appears to come from more than one source, so the analysis might be quite different on different days. You should investigate that first.

 

[Rwilts]

Glad I ducked out on page one , well done @peebee

 

[peebee]

is it allowed to go off forum so as not to bore other posters to death

also what is water hardness - I know my kettle furs up badly after 2 months......

Don't understand? If *I've* got the opportunity to bore anyone to death ... I do it!

As for "water hardness", it is a deadly dull arcane subject of no value at all to brewing beer. Learn about it by all means, but don't let it clutter your beer brewing.

peebee - look forward to your response after you visit anglianwater.co.uk

I am a pedantic old git aged 78 so that outtrumps you

If anglian analyse their water then how can it be out of balance - they just report what the spectrometer outputs

Have the finished (defuddled!) report, just trying to get a moment to post it.

Colliding head-on with a rather large rock while accelerating at 9.8 meters per second per second (err ... "rock" being planet Earth!) trumps whatever age you're at! The bar-stewards won't even let me drive a car ... have you got to that stage yet?

Between you and the guys with spectrometers are dozens of minions who listen to what customers think they want (I'm talking about "Hardness", and most customers haven't got a clue what that is about either), the minions haven't a clue what a "Calcium" is, and throw in a few "marketing types" to really mix things up, and the result is ... dozens of people who want to have a go at my trick (impacting with planet Earth while accelerating at 9.8 meters per second per second).

 

[peebee]

... meet up ?

If you're planning a holiday in the Snowdon hills. I'm rather a long way from you! And I'm limited to buses, with a "plus one" (escort, though I dont always need that).

 

[peebee]

peebee - look forward to your response after you visit anglianwater.co.u

Sorted ...

I did have to use my "Defuddler" to sort out a "bicarbonate" figure because it's another Anglia Water report. See the response for @Rogerh to get more detail of how the "Defuddler" extracts that with a seemingly total lack of information availble.

The trick is "ion mass balance" (eek!) ... basically figure out where everything else has gone, and assume what is left is bicarbonate. Humm ... that is why I leave it up to a spreadsheet to sort out. But it does mean the results chemically balance. the result, 97ppm as HCO3 is remarkably similar to your value of 107 ppm as HCO3. Where did you get that value 'cos the report doesn't give it?

In searching for signicant weights to add up I did add the weight (mass) of Phosphate (the "Defuddler" only sets aside space for Phosphate, Nitrate and Potassium, although you can add other elements if you want to be very farty about it). Phosphates can be significant contributors to dissolved solids, which is unfortunate because it is almost wholly caused by human activity (pollution). It's usually hidden as "Phosphorus" or "P4", but the "Defuddler" can handle it by first "converting" it to "Phosphate" ("Phosphorus"x3.07).

 

[Old Fart At Play]

As you have identified as part of the recipe you tell it your source and desired style and it will show any additions.

Had another look at it, created a recipe to try it out, but the problem is it only caters for lactic or phosphoric acid - not AMS/CRS. I guess I could switch to lactic if I wanted to use it.