Stainless Steel Fermenters

[Chippy_Tea]

I've been brewing for 6 years or more and never tipped one.

Exactly, I recently changed my 8 year old plastic FV for another plastic one as it had so many scratches inside I was sure it was going to ruin a batch at some point in the future, it probably wouldn't have.

 

[foxy]

Let’s put it this way, if a commercial brewery could brew a quality NEIPA or big West Coast in a plastic fermentor or something non pressure rated then they would do so without spending thousands of pounds on pressure vessels.

Going back to my comment, it depends on what you want to achieve. And to answer the original question of this thread, YES, stainless steel is better than plastic and pressure vessels are better than open fermenters for the reasons above.

Let me get comfy whilst I wait for the next plastic bucket user to get upset…



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But they don't spend thousands of pounds on pressure vessels, where did you get that information from? Mainstream fermenters in a commercial world are rated to 15 PSI, used for partially carbonating a finished beer. We are talking here on a home brew scale, if you started brewing on the date you joined THBF then you missed out on fermenting beer, no closed transfers, or pressure vessels. Yet excellent beers were still being made. I am afraid you have fallen for the spin on closed vessel fermentation, rooky error.

 

[user 18729]

But they don't spend thousands of pounds on pressure vessels, where did you get that information from? Mainstream fermenters in a commercial world are rated to 15 PSI, used for partially carbonating a finished beer. We are talking here on a home brew scale, if you started brewing on the date you joined THBF then you missed out on fermenting beer, no closed transfers, or pressure vessels. Yet excellent beers were still being made. I am afraid you have fallen for the spin on closed vessel fermentation, rooky error.

I’m not sure what a ‘Mainstream’ fermenter is, but tanks that are rated to 1 bar are called unitanks or brite tanks and are used to completely carbonate a finished beer. These cost a lot of money compared with something that’s not pressure rated. This information has come from first hand experience brewing in the commercial world.

You’re correct, I’ve been brewing for a long time and began with plastic fermenters, then moved over to stainless steel when I could afford to do so. I’m not sure I understand what point it is you’re trying to make?

 

[Sadfield]

Let’s put it this way, if a commercial brewery could brew a quality NEIPA or big West Coast in a plastic fermentor or something non pressure rated then they would do so without spending thousands of pounds on pressure vessels.

I know one that does. In large plastic conicals. As they understand that oxygen pickup during fermentation is minimal. Down stream of that is where they avoid it. Transfer to purged stainless pressure tanks, then into keg.

If a bucket seals airtight, resulting in a working airlock, then there's practically no more oxygen ingress than with the most expensive of stainless FV.

Fermenter material makes little difference, it's how you process beer beyond that.

All the gear and......

 

[user 18729]

I know one that does. In large plastic conicals. As they understand that oxygen pickup during fermentation is minimal. Down stream of that is where they avoid it. Transfer to purged stainless pressure tanks, then into keg.

If a bucket seals airtight, resulting in a working airlock, then there's practically no more oxygen ingress than with the most expensive of stainless FV.

Fermenter material makes little difference, it's how you process beer beyond that.

All the gear and......

Let me get this right… so the brewery you’re using by way of example transfers into a stainless pressure vessel? that’s an excellent argument there my friend.

 

[Sadfield]

Let me get this right… so the brewery you’re using by way of example transfers into a stainless pressure vessel? that’s an excellent argument there my friend.

....and no idea.

As the thread is specifically about fermenters then yes it is. You know what is also a pressure vessel, a corny keg. Ergo, if you know what you are doing, it's feasible to ferment in plastic, then transfer to oxygen free packaging for carbonation and dispense.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I'm pretty sure Samual Smiths achieve repeatability.

Isn't the main issue with oxidation of hoppy IPAs, dry hopping, transfer and packaging? Rather than the fermentation?

Pilsner Urquells sterile clean room.

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Black Sheep's, come and dribble into our Fv's, tour.
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Well I was up in Yorkshire a couple of years ago and wasn't impressed with Samuel Smiths and alot of the locals said it is not the beer it used to be and moved away from it some time ago...not many pubs sold it where I was, but I'm sure its consistently bad.....granted that is a matter of personal taste rather than process in this case.

If you're going to drink the beer quick then oxidation is not so much of an issue and cask beer is all about the turn around - it gets kicked out of the brewery as quickly as possible and out to the pubs who will condition/settle it for a week, and depending on how busy they are will only tap it if they are sure it will be gone in 3 - 4 days....after that it's only good for the drain. A keg beer on the other hand might sit on a container ship for a few months before getting to some far flung bar and might sit on the tap for weeks if its not a busy bar, and the last pint has to be as fresh and good as the first. That ain't happening if you've pulled a load of air into the beer at some point during or after fermentation.

On the Pilsner Urquel photo I suspect that is not their main production it is certainly not capable of producing the 9 million hectolitres of beer a year or so they chuck out. I suspect it's something they keep for their heritage museum for the tourists. But if you jumped Into a Time Machine and sampled some Pilsner Urquel from a few hundred years ago vs. today's version and it would be a completely unrecognisable from todays highly processed product despite their marketing bumph that claims they still make beer in the same traditional way they did hundreds of years ago....Ford could make that same claim since they invented the modern car transfer line and production system in 1913....but there is a big difference between a Model T Ford and a Mustang Mach E, even though they are produced in roughly the same way.

I don't have an issue with plastic...my fermzilla does a great job, as good as my mates Grainfather conical (and is far more versatile) so the material of the vessel has nothing to do with it really. A fermzilla or similar product is hardly an expensive bit of kit in the grand scheme of things, and is a definite upgrade over a plastic bucket and well worth the investment in my opinion. Its the yeast that makes beer...all us brewers need to do is to try not to screw it up for the yeast, so any investment in the fermentation side of things is well worth it in my opinion.

 

[Sadfield]

That ain't happening if you've pulled a load of air into the beer at some point during or after fermentation.

That's process not material though, which more expensive FV may facilitate with features. The original question was whether stainless over plastic resulted in a better beer.

If DO in plastic fermentors is so detrimental to hoppy hazy beers, then why do Verdant et al sell them in PET keykegs?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Yep I agree as per my comments regarding my fermzilla.

The beer in KeyKegs is contained in the bag inside the PET vessel..and most outlets pressurise the PET key kegs with CO2 anyway (though in theory could be compressed air) so if there is any gas transfer from the PET vessel into the bag then it is more likely to be CO2 transfer, but I understand the bags are impervious to gases.

Although PET is 'leaky' it's at the molecular level so not as if it's a leaky sieve. It's a slow process and if the vessel is pressurised then there is no oxygen molecules diffusing through the PET into the higher pressure environment of the inside of the PET vessel as the CO2 molecules will be leaking out of the PET skin and ultimately losing carbonation. But again this is a very slow process as demonstrated by the millions of fizzy drinks in PET bottles on supermarket shelves.

EDIT: just to be clear...my point about 'simple open' fermenters and O2 pick up is more around brewing highly hopped IPA with big dry hop charges where the biggest risk to O2 pickup is through the dry hopping process. Opening the lid and dumping a bucket load of hops causes splashing and stirring up of the krausen and the CO2 'blanket' on top of the beer pulling in O2. The big American IPA breweries, and those in the UK, will invest in expensive equipment to introduce hops to the fermenter without opening up the vessel or introducing any air/o2.

 

[user 18729]

That's process not material though, which more expensive FV may facilitate with features. The original question was whether stainless over plastic resulted in a better beer.

If DO in plastic fermentors is so detrimental to hoppy hazy beers, then why do Verdant et al sell them in PET keykegs?

I’m going to move past your antagonistic comments and answer your question in a friendly and polite way…

It’s commerciality vs practicality and what’s best for the beer:

1. A huge number of trade account customers/small venues don’t have the ability to dispense with co2 or mixed gas. It’s far more attractive to these venues to buy key kegs and hook them up to a lindr machine with an air compressor (many lindrs have a compressor built in for this reason).

2. Keykeg themselves I think mention there is a shelf life with their containers (it’s a long time, 12 or 18 months I believe) and obviously the BBE on a hazy pale is 4 to 6 months stored cold.

3. Keykeg are way more expensive for the brewery to buy in than other one-way options like Kegstar. The only real reason for using them is the saleability of them and demand.

From experience they are also a nightmare to get rid of and horrible for the environment.

 

[Druncan]

But you just can't stroke a plastic FV the same way I do with my Unitanks,,,,

 

[MashBag]

And here we have another point...

By plastic do we mean HDPE or PET Arguably two completely different things both called "plastic".

 

[Sadfield]

@Hopsteep I know why keykegs are used as an alternative to stainless kegs, thanks.

You appear recognise that material isn't detrimental to quality in this instance, so why would it be during fermentation?

 

[Agentgonzo]

And here we have another point...

By plastic do we mean HDPE or PET Arguably two completely different things both called "plastic".

Both. And many other things. Basically any oil-derived product.

 

[user 18729]

@Hopsteep I know why keykegs are used as an alternative to stainless kegs, thanks.

You appear recognise that material isn't detrimental to quality in this instance, so why

Oh, blimey, I’m terribly sorry for answering a question that you posted on a forum…

If you read my response again you’ll see that I mentioned Keykegs have a life because of the material they are made from. I think the rest is pretty self explanatory.

To be honest this is like trying to explain to a child why they need to clean their teeth every day. If you have any other questions where you’d like some insight from somebody a bit more switched on, feel free to drop me a message

 

[Sadfield]

Or just answer the question on the forum, and educate everyone.

 

[Pennine]

I would agree about the type of plastic used is probably more important. Plastic buckets and probably and those thin cheap pressure fermenters they are selling now would cause some hesitation for me. The thicker Spiedels are great though.

I actually think some prefer oxidized beer, especially in certain styles so it may be a detriment to change to a different fermenter.

 

[Nucbrewer]

Do any of you use a Klarstein Maischfest fermenter? I really wanted a stainless conical but these are cheaper and available. I’m happy fermenting at ambient pressure but to keep my options open is it only the Kegmenters and Corneys that will handle pressure fermentation?

 

[MashBag]

Fermentation pressure isn't huge, provided the lid seals well & clamps down. Fit the valves & gauges and away you go.

Buy something already setup if you don't want to tinker.

 

[starseeker]

I am sure that many a great competition winning beer has been brewed in a plastic bucket, let alone PET fermenting vessels, pressured, and non pressured, surely it is nearly all to do with process rather than brewing in stainless steel equals great beer, brewing in plastic equals bad beer ?