Sexism taken too far?

[jceg316]

I do find it ironic when someone says "if we stop doing X or Y society will be fairer and more inclusive for a marginalised group" and there is often backlash, usually with the phrases "It's the PC brigade trying to ban it!!" or "they are all snowflakes!!"

If you get riled up and offended by someone/some group trying to make society a fairer place then I think you are the snowflake here, scared of change.

If anyone wants to look at scantily clad women, we have the internet. On some sites they're actually wearing nothing at all! You don't need to put that on beer or tyres.

At the end of it, as a white male no one is taking anything away from you; it's giving something to a marginalised group to help create an inclusive society. Empathy goes a long way in these situations.

 

[Wouter]

I didn't know they were discussing banning cheerleaders what group of people doing something they enjoy will the axe fall on next.

I wish the world be so simple chippy.
If only it were some people enjoying dancing around.

Such things are an issue because they extend beyond just having a good time!
For instance, you get scholarships for being a cheerleader.
Basically you're stimulating young woman to be a glorified pole dancer, while simultaneously only allowing people with certain beauty standards as a cheerleader.

And that's the point of such things! The world does not end at your door step.

 

[Tau]

@ElvisIsBeer next up: brown sauce or ketchup!

Where is the Mayo? Condementist...lol

 

[geigercntr]

Where is the Mayo? Condementist...lol

I refuse to recognise the existence of that filth!

@Chippy_Tea how do you add a forumite to the 'blocked' list? :)

 

[marshbrewer]

I don't think the article mentions the Portman Group though - it's a SIBA code of practice which if I understand correctly would mean loss of SIBA membership for non-compliance, though you could continue to do whatever you want as long as it falls within the law.

I'm going from memory, I'll try and dig out the article, but this is a preemptive strike by SIBA as the Portman Group are going to enforce it anyways; a bloke from the Portman group even helped them draw up the guidelines IIRC.

Edit ~ here ya go.

John Timothy, Chief Executive of the Portman Group said:

“This is timely as we have been discussing issues around offence with SIBA and other stakeholders as part of wider preparations for a full review of the Portman Group Code of Practice later this year. Any additional guidance to ensure alcohol marketing is responsible is to be welcomed and we look forward to continuing discussions.”

 

[Saisonator]

 

[Linalmeemow]

He's a very paranoid man.

 

[Wouter]

I like Jordan Peterson. But I would suggest you try to listen to what the man actually says.
One of the main things he is often on about is that a lot of the American PC crowd is intellectually lazy. Instead of understanding ideas and making their own arguments they just blindly copy some slogans.

Now, what would you think he would say about people who just post video´s instead of presenting an argument :)

 

[Ajhutch]

Never heard of this guy before. I watched the video and have literally no idea what his point is other than communism is bad, which should, in the words of Jane Austen, be a truth universally acknowledged.

 

[jceg316]

One of the main things he is often on about is that a lot of the American PC crowd is intellectually lazy. Instead of understanding ideas and making their own arguments they just blindly copy some slogans.

I don't think this is reserved for American Guardian readers. This happens in every group.

 

[Saisonator]

He's a very paranoid man.

Painful when someone holds up a mirror.

 

[Saisonator]

I like Jordan Peterson. But I would suggest you try to listen to what the man actually says.
One of the main things he is often on about is that a lot of the American PC crowd is intellectually lazy. Instead of understanding ideas and making their own arguments they just blindly copy some slogans.

Now, what would you think he would say about people who just post video´s instead of presenting an argument :)

My view is to be wary of those pushing an agenda, even small things.
The left are very good at politics, they will chip away at the present social structures, just a very small bit at a time. So small the general population hardly notice, but the small moves add up and eventually become large shifts and so the whole acceptable way of thinking is transformed.
Most people instinctively dislike the far left and would never accept a Marxist revolution, for obvious historical reasons.
But the left believe that it is possible to achieve what they want, in very small increments.

Fortunately in my view there is some awakening, Trump, Brexit, Italian Elections, Merkel's decline because what she has subjected Europe to.
With any luck Sweden shake themselves out of their Stockholm syndrome and vote in the Sweden Democrats in September.

 

[Wouter]

So basically you believe that the left is an evil conspiracy?

If you specifically want to discuss dangers. I don't think the real danger is left or right. But people who just refuse to think.
People who do not really have an ideology but just blindly scream whatever their guts tells them because someone planted those ideas in their head.
And you have those on whatever side.

For instance in the USA (and to a lesser extend in the old world) you have the insane PC crowd. People scream ridiculous claims about that everything is always racism or sexism.
And that the entire system is against. Which is what Jordan Peterson describes. A type of people who just randomly scream some post moderist ideas mixed in with some marxism.
No critical thought, just booo oppression!

Now, lets go for the other side to your own country.
You brought up the Brexit? We now a large group of people who are against the EU because they feel like the EU oppresses them and rather go without because you have no influence or whatever.
This is perfectly fine! However, as I recall you guys have a royal family and a house of lords. Non democratic government organs who actually affect country! And why do those same people not protest against this? And how about when Scotland and North-Ireland bring up the topic of now wanting to leave the UK? Why is this same anti-EU group also against them leaving the UK? When the stuff England makes those states do is 10000x times worse then the EU when it comes to sovereignty and independence. These ideas cannot co-exist in a person rationally. And yet they do. And its so incredibly convoluted! How can you possibly consider the EU a dictatorship when you have a non-democratic government yourself and do everything in your power to stop other nations from being independent?
The answer to this is the same as to the PC people. Just a crowd of people who do not really have an ideology but just randomly scream whatever idea someone planted in their heads.

(Btw, I am not saying anything about the Brexit itself. The point is more that the points people have should always be consistent. If they are not, then that's a strong indication that they really don't understand any of the points.)

 

[Ciaran12s]

The better together crowd and the brexit crowd are one and the same. No to independence for one group and yes to independence for another.

 

[-Bezza-]

This is a really interesting topic to discuss and, for me, one where there are actually a lot of sub-plots to the main story line.

This is the little trail of thought my brain is going on...

First, we are having a discussion around what is essentially a cartoon drawing of a lady. There is no real person involved, so what is the offence that is being created. We'll come back to this in a moment.

Then let's have a look at the scantily-clad women marketing approach, where the women have no direct bearing on what is being sold, i.e. tyres. Assume that the women know that their image is being used for this purpose (having them sitting on a bit pile of tyres is probably a good clue), who is right to deny them the choice to use their body in this particular way. Is this fair? Is this "feminism" to deny a woman the right to use her body as she chooses?

If we bring these two things together, I would argue that we can't honestly be offended at this superficial level - no women were harmed in the making of this advert. But behind this is perhaps a discussion as to what impact this has on a society as a whole, in other words does the continual sexualisation of women do more harm in the long-run. Personally, I believe it does - on the whole, everything I read says women appear find it harder to get recognition for their genuine talents. The tendency for men to discriminate against women because they are women (less capable, should be at home looking after the kids, attractive so has "sexual harassment case written all over it", etc.) is still rife. My wife faces it at work, being denied opportunity because she is female. Of course, there are instances where men face the same (I've made the point before about trying to get bar work as a student), but I would think they are a drop in the ocean compared to what women face. For me, it's these general attitudes that need changing and that probably means not seeking to reinforce this view of women mainly being an object of men's desire. Diet Coke need to do the same in reverse too (although probably have).

Partly related to all this, there was an interesting article on the BBC recently where they interviewed a Chippendale about whether there were double-standards in attitudes towards men and women. Ryan (I seem to recall being his name :unsure:) was quite eloquent in making two points:

- When asked about why women were allowed to touch the men and were encouraged to be a bit hands on: at the Chippendale's shows, women pay for a ticket and that is it. At female strip shows, there is more often a payment made to the women in exchange for a performance, which brings with it an implied right over the women. I found that consideration interesting, albeit not directly relevant to this discussion.
- When asked if all the sexual harassment stuff was going too far: his view was that you need to overshoot the mark of acceptability, and become too puritanical about it, so that we can then relax the boundaries back to a position that is comfortable for all. This made sense and probably a lot of what we'll see over the next few years.

 

[simon12]

I find Jordan Peterson very hard to follow what hes saying most of the time but he seems to be on the right side of arguments n general. I think he makes his point on this in the Cathy Newman debate which you should all watch if you haven't see it, though its very 1 sided.
Here

 

[Saisonator]

So basically you believe that the left is an evil conspiracy?

If you specifically want to discuss dangers. I don't think the real danger is left or right. But people who just refuse to think.
People who do not really have an ideology but just blindly scream whatever their guts tells them because someone planted those ideas in their head.
And you have those on whatever side.

For instance in the USA (and to a lesser extend in the old world) you have the insane PC crowd. People scream ridiculous claims about that everything is always racism or sexism.
And that the entire system is against. Which is what Jordan Peterson describes. A type of people who just randomly scream some post moderist ideas mixed in with some marxism.
No critical thought, just booo oppression!

Now, lets go for the other side to your own country.
You brought up the Brexit? We now a large group of people who are against the EU because they feel like the EU oppresses them and rather go without because you have no influence or whatever.
This is perfectly fine! However, as I recall you guys have a royal family and a house of lords. Non democratic government organs who actually affect country! And why do those same people not protest against this? And how about when Scotland and North-Ireland bring up the topic of now wanting to leave the UK? Why is this same anti-EU group also against them leaving the UK? When the stuff England makes those states do is 10000x times worse then the EU when it comes to sovereignty and independence. These ideas cannot co-exist in a person rationally. And yet they do. And its so incredibly convoluted! How can you possibly consider the EU a dictatorship when you have a non-democratic government yourself and do everything in your power to stop other nations from being independent?
The answer to this is the same as to the PC people. Just a crowd of people who do not really have an ideology but just randomly scream whatever idea someone planted in their heads.

(Btw, I am not saying anything about the Brexit itself. The point is more that the points people have should always be consistent. If they are not, then that's a strong indication that they really don't understand any of the points.)

Scotland had an independence vote and voted to stay in the union, Northern Ireland at the moment would probably vote to stay in the union too.
So that's rubbish.

 

[Ajhutch]

I’m going to watch that tonight and take a drink every time he says a word with at least five syllables. I’ll be hammered by ten minutes in. Can’t wait to hear what the delineation of my destiny is all about.

He’s clearly a very clever man but his speech seems to be more about showing us how clever he is than articulating anything clearly.

 

[Wouter]

Scotland had an independence vote and voted to stay in the union, Northern Ireland at the moment would probably vote to stay in the union too.
So that's rubbish.

You miss my point.
Its not about what they voted for. It doesn't matter one bit.
Just like it doesn't matter whatever the UK voted for Brexit.

It's about the ideas themselves. Not the exact amount of people that follow them.
The point was this:

The better together crowd and the brexit crowd are one and the same. No to independence for one group and yes to independence for another.

Which are two opposing views which seem to exist simultaneously in the same group of people. Which makes one question wether or not they even understand these issues or just scream whatever their buddy dave at the pub told them was the best for the UK.

 

[simon12]

I think most of his stuff is designed for clinical psychology students which is why I find it hard to follow.