PID, probe and SSR purchase

[Northern Brewer]

In anticipation of buying some shiny new kit in the new year, I bought some kit on fleabay.

2 x PID - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330621981221? ... 1439.l2649

4 x Probes - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370560751119? ... 1439.l2649

4 x SSRs with heatsink - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180762926669? ... 1439.l2649

I think I will need to tinker about with the PID to get it to recognise the PT100 probes however will give me something to play with. I have some old PC cases that I may use for the cooling fans while I'm messing but will probably stuff it into something else later.

Bit of gamble on the PID front but for a tenner each I thought it worth the risk.

Still getting my head around HERMS etc however even if I only use it for the HLT, MT and FV (cold barn) to begin with then it will be worth it.

Cheers
NB

 

[PhatFil]

why 4 SSRs when only 2 PIDs surely its one SSR to a PID? or are you just building in backups, Im dipping my toes in the pond of hi tech controllers too, and am discovering there is a lot more too it than seen at first glance.

any pics of your build? how are you powering your pc fans, i thought of tripping pins 13 +14 on a pc psu to enable the 12 + 5v rails for fans? but then i wondered about piggybacking off the ssr 12v controll lines, after all the fans only needed when the ssr is on??

I was suppin and browsing ebay the other night n found this n orderd it thinkin i could use it to control a hlt temp for mashing and sparging.. and then possibly il buy a second to control the 2nd element in my mango barrel boiler


*its a fairly detailed ad with all specs i have available
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320783425622? ... 6198wt_938

it arrived fairly promptly and after seeing the shuttle case pid enclosure i too am thinking about putting this into a pc case, using a cpu heatsink n fan to bolt onto and cool the ssr. still workin out how to then fix the ssr heatsink and fan assembly into the case, am leaning towards an epoxy solution fixing the heatsink to the case hi temp epoxy resin

I have 2 issues however,

firstly in the instruction sheet and wiring diagram have 2 contacts for mains power but neither is marked live or neutral, is there a convention i dont know where the live goes to the left or the outside or ???? or does it not matter like a light bulb.?
on ebay page the pins 9 and 10 are labeld power.. thats the exact same as the instruction sheet


secondly the probe just does not look like it should be submerged in water or a fluid?? is this the sort of probe used with a thermowell? ive browsed and rebrowsed the ebay add without spotting anything about fluids.. i was pretty sure when i orderd it that the probe was suitable for immersing in liquids?

 

[Northern Brewer]

Hi PF

why 4 SSRs when only 2 PIDs surely its one SSR to a PID? or are you just building in backups, Im dipping my toes in the pond of hi tech controllers too, and am discovering there is a lot more too it than seen at first glance.

I knew I woudl need at least 3 SSRs for a 100L system - 2 for HLT, 1 for HERMS container. Could use one to turn one of the heaters in the copper off once it reached boiling, so one PID for HERMS and one for HLT and possibly another for copper but a switch would be good enough for the copper. Bought lots of probes 'cos they were cheap and look fragile.

any pics of your build? how are you powering your pc fans, i thought of tripping pins 13 +14 on a pc psu to enable the 12 + 5v rails for fans? but then i wondered about piggybacking off the ssr 12v controll lines, after all the fans only needed when the ssr is on??.

No picture yet, I thought I had a pile of old PCs but realised after I posted that I'd cleaned then out a few months ago, however I have a huge pile of PC bits including PSUs and CPU fans so will wait until I get all the bits together before I decide whether a 20 quid PC case is the way to go and how it all fits in,

I was suppin and browsing ebay the other night n found this n orderd it thinkin i could use it to control a hlt temp for mashing and sparging.. and then possibly il buy a second to control the 2nd element in my mango barrel boiler


*its a fairly detailed ad with all specs i have available
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320783425622? ... 6198wt_938

it arrived fairly promptly and after seeing the shuttle case pid enclosure i too am thinking about putting this into a pc case, using a cpu heatsink n fan to bolt onto and cool the ssr. still workin out how to then fix the ssr heatsink and fan assembly into the case, am leaning towards an epoxy solution fixing the heatsink to the case hi temp epoxy resin

I have 2 issues however,

firstly in the instruction sheet and wiring diagram have 2 contacts for mains power but neither is marked live or neutral, is there a convention i dont know where the live goes to the left or the outside or ???? or does it not matter like a light bulb.?
on ebay page the pins 9 and 10 are labeld power.. thats the exact same as the instruction sheet

secondly the probe just does not look like it should be submerged in water or a fluid?? is this the sort of probe used with a thermowell? ive browsed and rebrowsed the ebay add without spotting anything about fluids.. i was pretty sure when i orderd it that the probe was suitable for immersing in liquids?

Doesn't matter which way rounD the Live and neutral goes in this case. No idea about the probe's liquid resistence in your advert, the PT100 is fairly well known to be waterproof.

Cheers
NB

 

[PhatFil]

Doesn't matter which way rounD the Live and neutral goes in this case. No idea about the probe's liquid resistence in your advert, the PT100 is fairly well known to be waterproof.

NB

many thanks for confirming my suspicions of the wiring. i know enough about electricity to have respect for it and just was not sure. As for the probe I can always email the seller.. (just done in fact), its the nut n thread on the probe tip that threw me.

please keep us upto date with the pid tinkering to get your probes working as i may need to follow in your steps..

 

[Northern Brewer]

check out pjbiker thread on probes etc. viewtopic.php?p=197547#p197547

 

[tazuk]

have a look how i did mine i also got list of parts you got to make sure pid does work with pt100 as some dont ???
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19526

 

[PhatFil]

have a look how i did mine i also got list of parts you got to make sure pid does work with pt100 as some dont ???
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19526

that was the inspiration behind me jumping on the PID controller bandwagon tazuk.. I did like what you did. and like NB i thought "hmm i have an old midi tower pc case somewhere" :) even asked an idiot question in the thread :)
how hot do the ssrs run in your set up, as your not using specific heat sinks but rather using the case tray as a heat sink, does that work well?


Hey NB you linked to this post again :) viewtopic.php?p=197547#p197547 hehe..

i emailed the ebay seller about the probe, they have good feedback and invite questions so should get an answer soon.. im not near building tho dont even have a HLT vessel sorted yet..

I could use a pt100 it seems as this line in the ebay add says:
Support multi sensor input (K,S,Wre,T,E,J,B,N,CU50,PT100)

the little brown box of bits is sitting just within eyeshot winking at me and whispering "build me!!"

 

[tazuk]

i dont know m8 i think it depends how thick base plate is also if gets too hot you could use a mount thing or just place a fan in box thats as mutch as i know m8 :thumb:

 

[keith1664]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news going by the model number in the picture those PID's will only work with K type thermocouples not PT100's. I should know, I made the same mistake!

Here's a link to the better of the 2 instruction manuals available for these - you can use it to work out exactly what you have from the model number.

http://www.fmfranklin.com.au/products/data/rkc/c100inst.pdf

 

[tazuk]

this wot you need m8 :thumb:

Sensor Input ---T,R,J,B,S,K,E,WRe3-25,Cu50,Pt100


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Digital- ... 35b7b9c776

 

[PhatFil]

this wot you need m8 :thumb:

Sensor Input ---T,R,J,B,S,K,E,WRe3-25,Cu50,Pt100


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Digital- ... 35b7b9c776

cheers but i think the wires got crossed, the pid controller i have is compatible with the above list of probes..

what i have is a K type thermocouple (probe) with a braided steel cable sheaf and a probe 4.5mm x 20mm fitted with a hex nut. its spec states that it has fibreglass insulation. i just dont know about dropping it into liquid, it dont look right?? but my scope of reference is limited.. only temp probes i have seen for liquids (aquariums) have plastic coated waterproof looking probes.. i realise plastic coating would not last in temps upto 400oc,,

I could just take a suck it n see approach i guess, i have a fishtank heater i can wire up thru the ssr (50w shouldnt strain it much..) and see it i cant temp control a bucket of water to 25oc.. if the thermocouple/probe fails due to water ingress i doubt it will screw up the pid unit itself, it just wont opperate as expected?? but first i wil wait a day or two for the ebay seller to reply to my questions about the probe supplied being used in liquids.

thanks for taking the time to chase up a link tho its appreciated..

 

[keith1664]

Well going by the links you've posted you've bought pt100 probes and PID's which only work with k type thermocouples, unless of course the picture is of that type of PID but the actual item is different!

 

[tazuk]

yes i see it says type k on pid but he got pt100 as far as i know no body uses k type because pt100 are more accurate as far as i know :thumb:

Well going by the links you've posted you've bought pt100 probes and PID's which only work with k type thermocouples, unless of course the picture is of that type of PID but the actual item is different!

 

[Northern Brewer]

You can change the input setting of the PID if you can get into engineering mode, pjbiker set me on the right track viewtopic.php?p=192972#p192972. has to be the genuine part not cheap knock off, they have not arrived from the US yet so won't know until I get chance to fiddle.

Got SSRs with heatsinks. Just waiting for PIDs and probes.

For the Herms container I'm going to buy two SS stock pots. One about 7 litres to take my brupack copper coil that I've been using for cooling up to now. This will be a tight fit with no room for a side entry element so I'm thinking of standing this stock pot on another up turned stock pot and putting the element through the bottom (oo er missus!) and putting a kettle socket in the side of the upturned stock pot. Probably bolt the two pots together.

Its a 10mm coil, not sure where to get the bulhead type fittings to take it through the stock pot walls to take connections to the mash tun - however I bet somebody else does :pray:

Cheers
NB

 

[Northern Brewer]

Here's an update with pictures of the prototype. Nothing earth shattering that other members haven't done already however I like to get familiar with the kit and make sure it works before I start drilling holes in things.

First the equipment used - except the Tesco kettle, resting on the box it will eventually go into.

here's it installed in the prototype box - I used some scrap 4mm earth cable for the prototype to swith the live on the kettle - wrong colours but only used for 10 minutes to prove it

here's ethe PID and SSR in the plastic prototype box - not tidy but only used for a quick try out.

Here's the PID input type - the side of the PID says K thermocouple but I've reprogrammed the PID to use PT100, the P and upside down L on the bottom row indicate this.

This shows the PID operating the SSR, the green LED at the top left indicates the PID is switching the SSR.

The following image shows the PID has turned off the SSR before reaching the set temperature knowing it will continue to heat the water

the target temperature has now been reached - you can see the LED pulsing occasionally to keep the temp stable

Cheers
NB

 

[Svarrogh]

Hello! I have a few questions. Mine PID controller is similiral to yours but mine is ...M*AN and I can't set it to work with pt100+. I was holding Set+shift key but nothings happens. Also, when i put 65C in SV mine HLT stops at 65C and then starting to turn on and off output and temperature will reach 70C or above? Is it something wrong with my settings?

Thank you :

 

[Northern Brewer]

Hi S

The "M" version does not give an SSR voltage output but operates a standard relay. This is not a programmable option.

It's a while since I programmed my PID for probe type, I did it from the instructions, took me 2 attempts to get my head around it but after that was simple. I'm not in a position to try it now, I'm travelling on business, however I do have several more identical PIDS to programme and when I get around to it I'll add the method to the post, may be a while as I have family commitments this weekend so may be 10 days before I get chance to do more brewery tinkering. However all I did was follow the instructions that came with the PID.

Regards
NB

 

[Mark1964]

Does your pid have an auto tune option as ours did the same as yours overshot the target temp untill we run the autotune then it was fine

 

[Northern Brewer]

I think I will need to tinker about with the PID to get it to recognise the PT100 probes however will give me something to play with. I have some old PC cases that I may use for the cooling fans while I'm messing but will probably stuff it into something else later.

PT100 and K Type (K type being the one that particular PID controller uses) are totally different technologies and no amount of 'tinkering' will ever make them compatible. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news…

Hi Nelson

It is not a matter of making PT100 compatible with K type, yes they are different technologies however the PID can accept either technology, at least the model I have can. You just have to tell it which technology you want it to work with. I've tested it and can confirm it works and the manual clearly shows how to reprogramme it for either. The PID comes pre-programmed for K type hence the label on the side however this operation can be changed, then it will work ith PT100, the only thing it won't change is the label on the side saying its K type

EDIT - the online instructions do imply that if the hardware type differ i.e K type (Thermocouple hardware type) and PT100 (RTD hardware type) that it may not work. I have noticed some differences between the on line instructions and the ones that come with the PID however I can't check for a while as working way. But I have changed the type from K to PT100 in the configuration menu and it worked during testing, succesfully measuring both ambient and boiling water temp and modulating an SSR to keep a kettle at 68c with a PT100. I checked the temp with a seperate digital thermometer, so this indicates it supports both hardware types.

Regards
NB

 

[Northern Brewer]

Hello! I have a few questions. Mine PID controller is similiral to yours but mine is ...M*AN and I can't set it to work with pt100+. I was holding Set+shift key but nothings happens. Also, when i put 65C in SV mine HLT stops at 65C and then starting to turn on and off output and temperature will reach 70C or above? Is it something wrong with my settings?

Thank you :

One tip I forgot to mention, you have to have a probe wired to the PID before it gives you access to the options. That's probably the problem.