Hot Side Aeration. Myth or menace!

[Darcey]

Hello all!

My mash flange ( ) needs some alteration. It was made using basic copper pipe and about 3x dremmel cutting disks. A few of the holes are a little too. Big plans for that coming soon, but as a result during the sparge I can get some grain partials in my launter, if doing a darker beer then its harder to see just how much has got thru after ruining 2x batches when I found a huge amount of grain debris in the fermenter I decided to use a sieve/mesh to catch the grains during my sparge before adding the wort to the boiler.

I have always been worried about HSA as any noob that has done some research or read John Palmers book. I have allways used some of V1's hose to get the runnings in to the bottom of a bucket before adding to the boiler minimising HSA, but after calming myself down and seeing afew reports that HSA is not as bad as people say I started using the sieve and the runnings in to the bucket. The last two brews have been good using this method but there is some off flavour, nothing else has changed in my brewing practice, just the beer has a slightly off flavour to it, still drinkable but nothing compared to what I was doing 3 months ago. The problem with the mash flange will be sorted soon with some fine mesh wraped around the pipe and the runnings are going to be pumped up into the boiler in future rather than poured in.

Any advice people?!

D

 

[Aleman]

It's discussed a few times here

What is the off flavour? Generally HSA is perceived as a cardboardy taste.

 

[graysalchemy]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Darcey]

Oh great.. thanks. Like I havnt all ready searched and commented on most of the topics posted which for the most part have resulted in no conclusive yes or no.. or at least no comments.

Perhaps instead of automatically posting new posts the user is auto generated a search.

I really am starting to wonder why I use this forum any more.... :|

 

[theboytony]

I think this thread here pretty much confirms it as a myth

 

[Swift Pint]

Darcey, have you tried vorlaufing longer to try and settlle the grain bed more? Might work, but i guess it depends on how big the holes in the manifold are.

P.S anyone else think Vorlauf sounds like the name of an evil sorcerer/ overlord?

 

[Aleman]

I really am starting to wonder why I use this forum any more.... :|

"An Off Flavour" Well FFS try giving us a clue!! Describe the off flavour, what does it remind you of? I know tastes and perceptions are difficult to communicate but please try

Oh great.. thanks. Like I havnt all ready searched and commented on most of the topics posted which for the most part have resulted in no conclusive yes or no.. or at least no comments.

Well, There are several posts on here that do have conclusive answers. Several of mine have a scientific (sort of) explanation of why it is not necessarily a problem for British brewers, and there are others from Pro (or Soon to be Pro) Brewers that have a wealth of anecdotal evidence.

The 'problem' with HSA is that it is related to ingredients, product and method, and what methods suit one lot of ingredients producing beer A . . . will not suit Beer A being brewed with a different set of ingredients and a different method. so a conclusive yes no consensus is difficult to come by. Suffice it to say that should you be brewing ultra pale beers with US ingredients, then perhaps you need to think about minimising splashing . . especially if you intend to store your beer for an extended period. . . . otherwise it is a 'problem' that is not likely to affect UK Brewers. As was suggested in these threads

Hot Side Aeration 1
Hot Side Aeration 2
Hot Side Aeration 3
Hot Side Aeration 4

Perhaps instead of automatically posting new posts the user is auto generated a search.

Actually that's not a bad idea . . It saves a lot of time having to search for the post and then copy and paste it into a reply . . . . Again and Again!

 

[unclepumble]

In short what will you be doing with the finished beer?

If you are making German pilsners, american light lagers, or beers that you want to age or put in competitions, take precautions against HSA.

If your drinking the beer pretty quickly after production or making British or highly hopped beers I would not worry about HSA.

If it does exist you should only notice it in an older beer, not a fresh one.

& if you ever get the chance to see a calandria boiling kettle going at full pelt the reality of HSA will seem even more mythical.

It would be and is the last thing I worry about in my brewing set ups.

Up

 

[Aleman]

if you ever get the chance to see a calandria boiling kettle going at full pelt the reality of HSA will seem even more mythical.

It would be and is the last thing I worry about in my brewing set ups.

Up

Agreed Shane . . . Although I have taken precautions to minimise splashing, because that was the way my designs finished up rather than a specific design requirement.

Although from what I have been reading once the boil is under way the damage ( if it is going to have happened) will have already been done as it is oxidation of the lipids in the mash, and transfer that really cause the issue. Also the steam in the kettle and being driven of will displace air above the kettle reducing the amount of oxygen available for pick up.

 

[dennisking]

Don't think I have ever lost sleep over it.

 

[unclepumble]

if you ever get the chance to see a calandria boiling kettle going at full pelt the reality of HSA will seem even more mythical.

It would be and is the last thing I worry about in my brewing set ups.

Up

Agreed Shane . . . Although I have taken precautions to minimise splashing, because that was the way my designs finished up rather than a specific design requirement.

Although from what I have been reading once the boil is under way the damage ( if it is going to have happened) will have already been done as it is oxidation of the lipids in the mash, and transfer that really cause the issue. Also the steam in the kettle and being driven of will displace air above the kettle reducing the amount of oxygen available for pick up.

Agreed with the above, if you are worried about hot side areation it is more likely to occur in the mashing phase as opposed to the boil, we did have problems a few times at Burton, when the mash tun agitator seals started to fail, as they were sealed using compressed air. & that is why if using a Rims or Herms it is one of the reasons, to add the liquid back to the mash very gently without causing a great disturbance to the mash surface.

HSA is also a very rare occurence, and Cardboardy flavoured beers (mostly in commercial examples) are generally not down to HSA, but rather, poor DO (Dissolved Oxygen) management when pasteurizing.

UP

 

[Vossy1]

I've just read your initial post Darcey and I have to say it's very vague.......where is the HSA taking place :hmm: are you saying the sieve is causing 02 introduction :hmm: surely if it is that will cease once you have a good depth of runnings (a few litres) in your collection vessel, from that point on you can keep the hose submerged whilst still using the sieve. Why use the collection vessel at all, why not straight to the boiler :wha:
You're increasing any 'purposed' risk of HSA by adding an extra step, ie, collecting the runnings in one vessel then adding to the boiler.
As UP/Aleman have alluded to, HSA using a RIMS/HERMS is far more easily done (if indeed it's a risk using modified malts anyway).

I really am starting to wonder why I use this forum any more....

I'm really sorry you feel that way, I'm not sure why just this thread would make you feel that way :wha: Alemans advice and that of UP's is borne from knowledge of the brewing industry, many years of on the job training.....I'm not sure you'll get better advice anywhere else.

 

[BarnsleyBrewer]

I splash hot wort around without any problems, might contact Mythbusters (Discovery Channel) on this one, let Adam & Jamie check it out..

 

[graysalchemy]

:lol: :lol:

Kari Byron can come and test my sparge anyday :lol: :lol:

I collect my wort into a 2 gallon bucket and then hoof it into the boiler splashing from a great height and I have never had a problem with cardboard tasting beer however my muesli is decidedly cardboardy. :lol: :lol:

 

[dennisking]

I splash hot wort around without any problems, might contact Mythbusters (Discovery Channel) on this one, let Adam & Jamie check it out..

:rofl:

 

[jamesb]

Here's what I was trying to find. Forgot which computer I had it bookmarked on.

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19748

 

Kari Byron can come and test my sparge anyday :lol: :lol:

Is that so my lad, I hope you perform better for her than you do for me....

Mrs.G

 

[unclepumble]

Here's what I was trying to find. Forgot which computer I had it bookmarked on.

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19748

The best quote in that thread is below and should I hope Put all the HSA worries to Bed.

If you are a packaging brewery don’t worry about HSA, worry about ‘cold side aeration’. Minimize oxygen exposure during beer transfers and filtration. Keep package oxygen below 150 ppb. Keep beer cold during its entire time in the marketplace and sell only enough that it is on the shelf for less than 2 months.
If your brewery cost over $10’s of millions to build and you have state of the art packaging technology and you are shipping beer abroad, then maybe you should worry about HSA!


Dr Paul Farnsworth University of new Mexico

In short If you are a Homebrewer:

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT HSA IT IS LESS LIKELY TO AFFECT YOUR FINISHED BEER THAN OTHER THINGS THAT YOU DO THAT ARE MORE, LIKELY TO FECK UP YOUR FINISHED BEER!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Darcey]

I did write a huge reply to this but deleted it.

Perhaps a better way to build the community is to ....
"
LETS ALL GOOGLE SEARCH ALL THE N00B POSTS ON THE FOURM, SOUNDS LIKE FUN>??! FFS
"

 

[unclepumble]

I did write a huge reply to this but deleted it.

Perhaps a better way to build the community is to ....
"
LETS ALL GOOGLE SEARCH ALL THE N00B POSTS ON THE FOURM, SOUNDS LIKE FUN>??! FFS
"

I don't see what you are getting at here, I answered your question without any google search, I said don't worry about HSA.

When you were not happy with AM's response etc I looked up examples on tinternet, as did JB to try, and give you and anyone else worrying about HSA, further evidence to eliviate your fears, the original opinion I gave was based on real experince of working in a 500bbl & a 700bbl per brew brewhouse, not Google.

Therefore if this is the sort of response you have to my advice, I will not be offering any in future.

Enjoy werriting over your bucket of beer!!!!!!!

UP