Hop mashing

[jambop]

Anybody tried hop mashing to make their IPA's or any other style of beer.

 

[The Baron]

Never done it but reading about it I believe it reduces bitterness as the hops never go over mash temps.
Only what I have gleaned of tinterweb

 

[An Ankoù]

Anybody tried hop mashing to make their IPA's or any other style of beer.

I've started doing it. I read a confusing account (confusing to me) of how mash hopping increases thiol precursors either in the hops or the malt (yes, apparently there are bound thiols in the malt) which can give a hoppier flavour to the beer. I've done it twice and neither is ready for drinking yet, so I can't say if it's a success.
I use pellets to the requiredi IBUs in a large, fine-mesh bag (Sainsbury's produce bag) and stir it into an overnight mash. The next morning the bag gets a bit of a rinse and is chucked into the boil.
I'll let you know if I can tell any difference, but I haven't done a side-by-side so who knows.

 

[Sadfield]

I've been adding hops to the mash for over a year now. I don't brew massively dry hopped hazy beers, so can't comment on the whole thiolised thing. However, it's not something noticeable on a one off experiment, which is probably why there's not much info on it. I have noticed an improvement in quality, and more so stability, consistency of flavour, in my beers, from first to last bottle. Hard to quantify, fresher, brighter, longer.

Some details in this thread.

​

Mash hopping, are you doing it? - Thiols, chelating metals, aroma, habit.....

 

[jambop]

It is said to be an old method so there is nothing new about it. Maybe something a craft brewer has ressurected?

 

[Sadfield]

I think the research around bound Thiols and yeast is new. But, you are right it's an old technique, which brewers must have found value in.

 

[jambop]

I think the research around bound Thiols and yeast is new. But, you are right it's an old technique, which brewers must have found value in.

Could be rubbish but the report I saw said it was a way of getting greater utilisation of hops but using the same hops to bitter the beer?
Should have added that was the original reasoning they did not really know about half of the stuff modern truth seekers are harping on about.

 

[An Ankoù]

Here's the stuff from Omega Labs: Read the paragraphs "What's the deal with ash hopping" and "Wait a second- you can get thiols from malt".
The article is mainly about how they've developed genetically modified yeasts, which I haven't found to be generally avaiable. The downside is that they don't give enough detail and some of the findings see to conflict.
Scot Janisch also talks about mash hopping, if my memory serves me right.
Anyone who can point me to further primary literature (rather than stuff just copied from someone else) would deserve a pint or two of my new stout "Darkness Shall Cover the Earth".

https://omegayeast.com/all-about-thiolized-yeast

 

[Brew_DD2]

Here's the stuff from Omega Labs: Read the paragraphs "What's the deal with ash hopping" and "Wait a second- you can get thiols from malt".
The article is mainly about how they've developed genetically modified yeasts, which I haven't found to be generally avaiable. The downside is that they don't give enough detail and some of the findings see to conflict.
Scot Janisch also talks about mash hopping, if my memory serves me right.
Anyone who can point me to further primary literature (rather than stuff just copied from someone else) would deserve a pint or two of my new stout "Darkness Shall Cover the Earth".

https://omegayeast.com/all-about-thiolized-yeast

I don't think we can get the GMO strains over here unfortunately.

 

[Sadfield]

A combination of Lallemand yeasts could work.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...iols-and-their-role-in-hop-biotransformation/

As can some Safale ones.

https://cdn.brewersassociation.org/...abHour_HopThiolReleaseInBeer_Presentation.pdf

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/fermentis-yeast-strains-for-biotransformation/


More info from the hop suppliers.

https://yakimavalleyhops.com/blogs/news/mash-hopping-101

 

[micklupulo]

This seems to be the most appropriate thread for a query I have. My equipment is ancient and temperature control is very difficult so I have recenty switched to part grain to avoid a mash. I would not rule out kits but many are bland and some come with a large dose of dry hops which I don't enjoy. Q. Has anyone introduced hops (in a bag) to the malt and other fermentables when mixed with hot water when between 70 to 80C and left in for about 10 minutes? In other words a process very similar to flame- out hopping after a boil.

 

[jof]

I would think it's more like adding hops to a 80c hopstand/whirlpool. If you search hopstand you will get an idea of the quantity & time people use. (From memory 20 mins at 80c was a popular one)

To me flameout hops literally go in when you turn off the power, and unless you've got a rapid cooling device, flameout hops will still be at 98/99c after 10 minutes

 

[micklupulo]

Thanks. My query might not have been totally clear but it was with reference to a possible extract brew or tweaking of a basic kit or even one that came with hops intended for a dry hop but just using them (or some) in a different way.

I would think it's more like adding hops to a 80c hopstand/whirlpool. If you search hopstand you will get an idea of the quantity & time people use. (From memory 20 mins at 80c was a popular one)

To me flameout hops literally go in when you turn off the power, and unless you've got a rapid cooling device, flameout hops will still be at 98/99c after 10 minutes

 

[Andrew Booth]

I have brewed a couple of years back a Nectaron Pale Ale 50g in the mash 25g 60 minutes and 30g 15 minutes used phantasm and WHC hop unlock got a great beer out of that my suspicion was if your mashing around 65 the mash hops should infuse flavour and aroma

 

[Andrew Booth]

I don't think we can get the GMO strains over here unfortunately.

We can’t have anything Genetically Modified in the UK due to the food laws for biosecurity that doesn’t stop the The yanks though.

 

[foxy]

This seems to be the most appropriate thread for a query I have. My equipment is ancient and temperature control is very difficult so I have recenty switched to part grain to avoid a mash. I would not rule out kits but many are bland and some come with a large dose of dry hops which I don't enjoy. Q. Has anyone introduced hops (in a bag) to the malt and other fermentables when mixed with hot water when between 70 to 80C and left in for about 10 minutes? In other words a process very similar to flame- out hopping after a boil.

Do you mean First Wort Hopping ? This is done in the wort when the grain basket is lifted and left for the duration and does produce a smoother hop bitterness.
As for hops in the mash better to read the research papers. Seems it was done in the past for producing a beer which will be less prone to staling.
1950 a study was carried out which concluded it was a complete waste of hops. 2016 study by Kunze and Co came to the same conclusion. But in saying that they were more interested in oxidative stability, but it took a shed load of hops to achieve it.

 

[An Ankoù]

This seems to be the most appropriate thread for a query I have. My equipment is ancient and temperature control is very difficult so I have recenty switched to part grain to avoid a mash. I would not rule out kits but many are bland and some come with a large dose of dry hops which I don't enjoy. Q. Has anyone introduced hops (in a bag) to the malt and other fermentables when mixed with hot water when between 70 to 80C and left in for about 10 minutes? In other words a process very similar to flame- out hopping after a boil.

It looks as if you're using malt extract for your base and supplementing that with specialty malts that don't need mashing.
Adding hops to the resulting wort at some stage before the boil is first wort hopping as @foxy says. But why do you take them out again after 10 minutes? I don't see what you're trying to achieve. Is this a no boil process, where you're trying to get hop flavour without bitterness? If, on the other hand, you proceed to a boil, then nearly all the flavour and aroma will boil off and you'll have no bitterness except from the dust which has escaped the bag. Effectively, you'll have wasted your hops. (unless I've missed something here, which is possible as I'm writing pre-first gauloise and coffee).
If, on the other hand, you're talking about hops added after the boil then you'll get flavour and aroma but little bitterness if these are your only hops.
Could you be a bit clearer.

 

[micklupulo]

It looks as if you're using malt extract for your base and supplementing that with specialty malts that don't need mashing.
Adding hops to the resulting wort at some stage before the boil is first wort hopping as @foxy says. But why do you take them out again after 10 minutes? I don't see what you're trying to achieve. Is this a no boil process, where you're trying to get hop flavour without bitterness? If, on the other hand, you proceed to a boil, then nearly all the flavour and aroma will boil off and you'll have no bitterness except from the dust which has escaped the bag. Effectively, you'll have wasted your hops. (unless I've missed something here, which is possible as I'm writing pre-first gauloise and coffee).

Thanks for this and also to Foxy. As I suspected I had not been clear enough in my question. When I referred to an extract brew I should have said "usìng pre hopped extract" and of course kits come with hopped extract. Because so many kits are a bit bland and because I don't enjoy those that rely on massive dry hopping for flavour I want to employ a more subtle approach and also avoid the need for boiling a wort of a strained specialty malt and hops. Specifically I was thinking of getting a Coopers Canadian Blonde which I would mix with a Dark Rock enhancer and after mixing but before topping up would want to rev up with 25gms of Citra hop pellets I have in the freezer from the last brew. I would be seeking flsvour and aroma not bitterness hence my thought that 70 to 80C would be about right. Thanks for input so far and hope the early morning stimulants have worked!

 

[An Ankoù]

Do you mean First Wort Hopping ? This is done in the wort when the grain basket is lifted and left for the duration and does produce a smoother hop bitterness.
As for hops in the mash better to read the research papers. Seems it was done in the past for producing a beer which will be less prone to staling.
1950 a study was carried out which concluded it was a complete waste of hops. 2016 study by Kunze and Co came to the same conclusion. But in saying that they were more interested in oxidative stability, but it took a shed load of hops to achieve it.

I've also read that and there are two camps of those who do and those who don't. The "doers" claim a better hop smoothness like the "first wort" lobby.
But Omega seem to be looking for something other than oxidative stability. In the article I linked above they say on mash hopping:
"Using hops so early in the brewing process at well below boiling temperatures may seem counterintuitive, but it turns out that using hops in the mash provides an opportunity to convert thiol-precursors into a form that makes it possible for our Thiolized strains to generate rich, tropical aromas."
My questions are about where these precursors come from- the malt or the hops, and what is the process of conversion. There's far too little here, from Omega, for such sweeping claims.
Anyway, if the hops are contained in a bag and then chucked into the boil, there's, no wastage.

 

[foxy]

I've also read that and there are two camps of those who do and those who don't. The "doers" claim a better hop smoothness like the "first wort" lobby.
But Omega seem to be looking for something other than oxidative stability. In the article I linked above they say on mash hopping:
"Using hops so early in the brewing process at well below boiling temperatures may seem counterintuitive, but it turns out that using hops in the mash provides an opportunity to convert thiol-precursors into a form that makes it possible for our Thiolized strains to generate rich, tropical aromas."
My questions are about where these precursors come from- the malt or the hops, and what is the process of conversion. There's far too little here, from Omega, for such sweeping claims.
Anyway, if the hops are contained in a bag and then chucked into the boil, there's, no wastage.

Its the amount of hops that need to be used where the wastage lies. It isn't just one dose, it's several. The reasons were for chelating the metal ions in the wort. Nothing to do with flavour.