Hop mashing

[An Ankoù]

I'm with @An Ankoù.
Start from "oh, that sounds interesting" and test it out.
Make 2 brews and taste test them to see if it makes any difference.

Get others in your family to try them side by side too.

Then we can have a civil thread saying something like "I could taste batch b was less bitter, but the Mrs & her sister couldn't tell the difference"

If you're that worried, repeat with different beer styles.

Yeah, but @jof , that's not science, is it!
Proper science is going to the pub on a Saturday night, having a gentlemanly (and gentleladily) discussion about the hypothesis under consideration while getting truly lashed and enduring constant entreaties and threats from the barlord to moderate the "technical" language and then beating ten bales of shi'te out of each other at closing time, on the way home while roundly abusing the locality and soundly thumping anyone with the temerity to interfere. Wake up next morning without the faintest recollection of the point at issue, but content in the certain knowledge that the matter has been properly discussed and voted on.
Ah The joys of science. Not for the faint-hearted or weak of knee.

 

[jof]

As you say @An Ankoù, I think this could be a four pint problem just to work out the testing hypothesis.

 

[Sadfield]

I'm with @An Ankoù.
Start from "oh, that sounds interesting" and test it out.
Make 2 brews and taste test them to see if it makes any difference.

Get others in your family to try them side by side too.

Then we can have a civil thread saying something like "I could taste batch b was less bitter, but the Mrs & her sister couldn't tell the difference"

If you're that worried, repeat with different beer styles.

Doesn't work @jof. Read post 4.

Report the results of 18 months of trialling mash hopping and taking results to two homebrew clubs for appraisal, no mention of science. The result, findings are dismissed as placebo, or debate blocked my false citations to designed to stop people trying things for themselves.

The problem with this subject is there's very little anecdotal evidence because people get told it makes no difference, so don't bother experimenting. All that is left is the science.

 

[jambop]

Doesn't work @jof. Read post 4.

Report the results of 18 months of trialling mash hopping and taking results to two homebrew clubs for appraisal, no mention of science. The result, findings are dismissed as placebo, or debate blocked my false citations to designed to stop people trying things for themselves.

The problem with this subject is there's very little anecdotal evidence because people get told it makes no difference, so don't bother experimenting. All that is left is the science.

Brulosophy did a real world experiment involving hopping of beer. Not a science based one using very sophisticated laboratory equipment to measure nano gram quantities of substances. Essetially wort was made and two beers were made from it using exactly the same conditions. The only difference was that one of the two beers had a huge amount less IBU's . In a blind test using what they described as seasoned beer drinkers the two beers could not be reliably differentiated. Now one could say that some drinkers could tell the difference, that is not the point. In terms of a population factually nobody actually could...that is the way testing works, not using high performance laboratory analysis.

 

[An Ankoù]

I shall carry out my own research as outlined above. And perhaps another one with good hops.
I'm a bit concerned @jambop , that one beer had massively lower IBUs, and yet "seasoned beer drinkers" couldn't reliably tell the difference.
The objectives of my experiments might be different though. The first one is to see whether old hops can be revitalised through mash hopping, and a future one will be to see whether there is a distinct flavour difference due to thiol production. But the latter is only viable in a limited number of hop varieties, I understand.
I'll let you know what the outcome is.
All other discussion is pretty much like my analogy of Saturday night at the pub, in my opinion. Since there doesn't seem to be any reliable research results.

 

[jambop]

I shall carry out my own research as outlined above. And perhaps another one with good hops.
I'm a bit concerned @jambop , that one beer had massively lower IBUs, and yet "seasoned beer drinkers" couldn't reliably tell the difference.
The objectives of my experiments might be different though. The first one is to see whether old hops can be revitalised through mash hopping, and a future one will be to see whether there is a distinct flavour difference due to thiol production. But the latter is only viable in a limited number of hop varieties, I understand.
I'll let you know what the outcome is.
All other discussion is pretty much like my analogy of Saturday night at the pub, in my opinion. Since there doesn't seem to be any reliable research results.

To be fair perhaps an exaggeration on my part one beer had twice the IBU of the other.
The thing is regardless of whether you are an experienced beer maker and drinker, a newby or have never even tasted beer before it is the taste palette of the individual that dictates the outcome of a blind taste test not preconcieved ideas of how something should taste. We are now getting tasting notes on the back of beer bottles now... people are being told what they are going to taste. The preconception seed is being planted before they have got the beer to their house and into a glass

 

[Rodcx500z]

Personally i find all this a load of old tosh, i base this on the fact that all this experiment malarky is a waste of good grain and most pub goers would not know a good pint if it bit them in the arris, it's like when you go on holiday walk in the local tavern and the have phis on tap nobody cares, the other day i was in Wigan in a pub and i over heard a group at the bar all talking how good that taste of Madrid lager is you know the one Madri well feck me i nearly fell over, this a debate that's going nowhere the majority of the population of this country are obliviouse to what a good pint is and i feel priviliged to belong to the group who do

 

[Sadfield]

Now one could say that some drinkers could tell the difference, that is not the point.

It very is the point. We brew for ourselves not for the general public, if you are one of those people that can tell the difference, then it matters greatly.

It's a flawed argument anyway, as the most popular beer is Carling and that has to sent out with a carefully controlled level of DMS, a well known beer fault.

The results I'm observing wouldn't show in a Brulosophy trial as they were tasting two fresh beers. My observation is centred about shelf life.

 

[Sadfield]

Not really a a waste @Rodcx500z when you get good beer either way. A little extra hops isn't going ruin a beer.

 

[jambop]

It very is the point. We brew for ourselves not for the general public, if you are one of those people that can tell the difference, then it matters greatly.

I think you are missing a huge point here. Blind testing is about taste not preconcieved notions. What you are saying is if I believe then it is worth while doing something whether I can taste the difference or not. That is fine but it does not mean that a given method of making a beer actually is going to make that beer taste different to the same ingredients used to make the beer by another method.
Everybody has a different ability to taste things and just because you make beer does not dicatate that you will have that ability. Now when we get down the minutia of the levels of difference and we are talking molecular levels here ng and pg per litre you need a very good palette to detect differences not just the idea that because you did something different you are going to be able to detect a difference.

 

[An Ankoù]

Personally i find all this a load of old tosh, i base this on the fact that all this experiment malarky is a waste of good grain and most pub goers would not know a good pint if it bit them in the arris, it's like when you go on holiday walk in the local tavern and the have phis on tap nobody cares, the other day i was in Wigan in a pub and i over heard a group at the bar all talking how good that taste of Madrid lager is you know the one Madri well feck me i nearly fell over, this a debate that's going nowhere the majority of the population of this country are obliviouse to what a good pint is and i feel priviliged to belong to the group who do

In fairness @Rodcx500z, I don't think many of us could give a dingo's kidney about the Madri-swillers of this world. The issue is whether we can make better beer for ourselves. The debate is indeed going nowhere unless people are prepared to give it a try, if they're so inclined.
@jambop , do you have a link to that Brewlosophy article, I'd like to see what they did and how they did it. Ta.

 

[Sadfield]

No I'm saying everyone tastes differently, have different taste threshold. It has nothing to do with belief, some people can taste thing others can't. If you are one of those tasters in a trial, that statistically returned a negative result, it doesn't mean you didn't taste the thing tested for.

Again, my observation isn't about an extra flavour, it's about oxidation and shelf life. What I'm not tasting is a loss of flavour over a longer period.

There's plenty of threads about hop flavour stability and flavour changing over time.

I'm really struggling to work out why you started the thread, having such a negative response to the answers. Just to tell people they are wrong, appears the only logical reason. Why did you ask? Why disregard all possible replies as imagined results?

 

[jambop]

I asked simply to find out if people did this and why they did it. You say it makes no difference to the flavour of the beer it is more to do with the shelf life... but it does? I am not convinced that it will make any difference to someone making a 25 L batch of beer I drink a 25L batch within a period of six weeks very subtle changes in flavour are normally termed maturity

 

[Sadfield]

So your beer changes over 6 weeks. Perhaps maturity and oxidation are the same process. Is maturity something you want in an IPA?

 

[Rodcx500z]

Does it really matter, it's like food, i once went to Northcoat which is michelin starred i left many many pounds lighter and left wondering what all the fuss is about, to me it was normal tasting food presented in a fancy way, so just enjoy your beers for the rest of the day

 

[Sadfield]

Why have forum @Rodcx500z? Isn't the point of it to make better beer by sharing information and experience? Or, do we all stop at a certain level, to not hurt people's feels? Exercise you right to not read things.

 

[An Ankoù]

Does it really matter, it's like food, i once went to Northcoat which is michelin starred i left many many pounds lighter and left wondering what all the fuss is about, to me it was normal tasting food presented in a fancy way, so just enjoy your beers for the rest of the day

Imagine, for the sake of argument that you're going to make a nice barbecue sauce to baste your chicken pieces with and cook over the coals. As as experiment, you might marinate the chicken overnight in said sauce and then proceed to cook as in the first case.
Is such an experiment worth conducting?
Would we expect a massive or just a subtle, but perceptible improvement in the flavour and texture of the chicken?
I think we're looking for something vaguely parallel with mash hopping. Of course is doesn't mean that it;s there to be had, but it;s worth a trial, I'd say.

 

[jambop]

So your beer changes over 6 weeks. Perhaps maturity and oxidation are the same process. Is maturity something you want in an IPA?

Well to be honest if my bottled beer does change over the course of say six weeks it really is not something I would notice, unless it went off! If you take it to the nth degree what you are saying is that from day one to the final day of consumption beer undergoes a flavour change. Fair enough I am sure it does but an individual would have to have incredible powers of recall to be able to make any comparison... I cannot.

 

[Sadfield]

Too many scared to experiment, and don't want others to. Sad.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Right the sun has climbed above across the roads cable end so time for a beer think, see ya all later