General election

[JockyBrewer]

I found something... a report (funded by a UK university group) cited by a House of Commons report says that

international students starting in 2021/22 would bring economic benefits to the UK of £41.9 billion, have costs to the UK of £4.4 billion, and hence net economic benefits of £37.4 billion.

One other point mentioned which I think is important is that:

over one-quarter of the world’s countries (58) are headed by someone educated in the UK

Soft power shouldn't be undervalued.

See here: https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...value has increased,benefits of £37.4 billion.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I found something... a report (funded by a UK university group) cited by a House of Commons report says that
One other point mentioned which I think is important is that:
Soft power shouldn't be undervalued.

See here: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7976/#:~:text=Their real value has increased,benefits of £37.4 billio

Further proof that we need to stop demonising migration it is not as black and white as they try to make out, very complex and putting cap or limit on it without assessing the medium to long term impact is irresponsible and damaging to the economic growth of the country.

This is Brexit all over again, all the immigrants fault not the government that let them in.

Not just the money but the prestige of being educated in the UK should not be lost in this toxic debate

 

[Kerby]

But how do we establish how many the infrastructure will support?
Our schools are crumbling and class sizes too large / schools, especially Gove's free schools, are closing because there aren't enough pupils.
The NHS is on its knees and there aren't enough medical staff to clear the backlog / there are thousands of doctors unemployed because the funds are not there to employ thm

What is the truth????

My feeling is that if young, fit, immigrants, especially asylum seekers were welcomed, we'd put them to work doing stuff that needs doing and they'd pay the taxes necessary to put the infrastructure back on its feet. These people are not uneducated nomads from some benighted backwater somewhere, they're trained professionals and skilled artisans. Why shouldn't they be? How else would they pay the traffickers? They worked in the countries they're fleeing from!

I’ll add that it’s not the young, fit immigrants that are putting a strain on the NHS, it’s the aging, indigenous population. We need more workers and more tax revenue, if we want the NHS to be able to look after us in our dotage, we’d better start welcoming immigrants with open arms.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

We need more workers and more tax revenue

I agree but We have plenty of unemployed people to do the work here already, skilled immigrants are needed to fill posts where years of training would be required.

The UK unemployment rate was 4.3%, and 1.49 million people aged 16+ were unemployed. Unemployment levels increased by 103,000 over the last year, and the unemployment rate rose. 9.38 million people aged 16-64 were economically inactive, and the inactivity rate was 22.1%.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I agree but We have plenty of unemployed people to do the work here already, skilled immigrants are needed to fill posts where years of training would be required.

The UK unemployment rate was 4.3%, and 1.49 million people aged 16+ were unemployed. Unemployment levels increased by 103,000 over the last year, and the unemployment rate rose. 9.38 million people aged 16-64 were economically inactive, and the inactivity rate was 22.1%.

It's not as straightforward as that. There are those not looking for work, and it's easier said than done getting those who are unemployed into work. Our figures are still low by historic standards. There will always be a percentage of society that cannot/will not remain in employment and weeding them out and withdrawing welfare payments without impacting genuine claimants isn't a simple task.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52660591.amp

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It's not as straightforward as that.

I am sure some of the 9.38 million could be persuaded to work.

 

[old dog new tricks]

The problem is some have never worked and survived off benefits.

the system is broken there is no incentive to work, I could have a greater disposable income by not working have everything paid for, pretty sure i could claim my f*cked knee and other injuries if I really wanted to, but as a civil servant that is not my mindset a million miles away. Point I am making is i do not believe in punishing those how can not work as there are many, bit those who choose not to that a different story, we need top to bottom shake up of the benefit and tax system, it should be beneficial to work, even at minimum wage it should be significantly better.
I think there needs to be a clear line between those who can perform some kind of work (and i include volunteering that should be rewarded as far as possible by the state) there needs to be sensible approach to this, some of the examples on re skilling or re training are laughable, pointless training someone in a job they do not want or cannot do.

Those who choose not to work well they should be given the absolute minimum, if you have been assessed as fit to work and have no valid reason not to then i see no need to over compensate.

Sadly a some feel they can play the system can't go into detail but via TU i have case where an employee in her early 20s has not worked a full week for over 2 years, has an appalling sick record, declares herself fit attends the workplace then leaves after 4 hours as she gleefully tells her employers I am going home don't feel well have attended so breaks my pattern of sick. Has come to a head now as the employer has issued termination notice for 3rd and final warning of disciplinary offences.

Her appeal - my doctor has diagnosed me with anxiety and depression and these grounds you cannot take as action as I am protected in law.

She actually thinks she can do anything she wants as she can get a doctors letter at any point saying anything she want to ensure she is untouchable!

its this kind of behaviour that gives a generation a bad name!

 

[An Ankoù]

The problem is some have never worked and survived off benefits.

the system is broken there is no incentive to work, I could have a greater disposable income by not working have everything paid for, pretty sure i could claim my f*cked knee and other injuries if I really wanted to, but as a civil servant that is not my mindset a million miles away. Point I am making is i do not believe in punishing those how can not work as there are many, bit those who choose not to that a different story, we need top to bottom shake up of the benefit and tax system, it should be beneficial to work, even at minimum wage it should be significantly better.
I think there needs to be a clear line between those who can perform some kind of work (and i include volunteering that should be rewarded as far as possible by the state) there needs to be sensible approach to this, some of the examples on re skilling or re training are laughable, pointless training someone in a job they do not want or cannot do.

Those who choose not to work well they should be given the absolute minimum, if you have been assessed as fit to work and have no valid reason not to then i see no need to over compensate.

Sadly a some feel they can play the system can't go into detail but via TU i have case where an employee in her early 20s has not worked a full week for over 2 years, has an appalling sick record, declares herself fit attends the workplace then leaves after 4 hours as she gleefully tells her employers I am going home don't feel well have attended so breaks my pattern of sick. Has come to a head now as the employer has issued termination notice for 3rd and final warning of disciplinary offences.

Her appeal - my doctor has diagnosed me with anxiety and depression and these grounds you cannot take as action as I am protected in law.

She actually thinks she can do anything she wants as she can get a doctors letter at any point saying anything she want to ensure she is untouchable!

its this kind of behaviour that gives a generation a bad name!

While I agree with a lot of what you say, how true is this? I'm well out of touch with the UK (or any other) benefits system, but I understood it was quite punitive. Back in the 70s and 80s, I understand, "going on the dole" was a realistic option, but I had thought that today even those who genuinely needed benefits can't really service on them. There were no food banks in the earlier decades.
So what is the situation, @old dog new tricks , if you decided to "fleece" the system, what could you get away with?

 

[old dog new tricks]

While I agree with a lot of what you say, how true is this? I'm well out of touch with the UK (or any other) benefits system, but I understood it was quite punitive. Back in the 70s and 80s, I understand, "going on the dole" was a realistic option, but I had thought that today even those who genuinely needed benefits can't really service on them. There were no food banks in the earlier decades.
So what is the situation, @old dog new tricks , if you decided to "fleece" the system, what could you get away with?

If you know how to play the system you will pay no rent, no council tax and be paid not to work, yes not a huge amount but given the main outgoings are already paid it gives a larger disposable income in some cases by all means not all but some.

Food banks is very good point, a large percentage of food bank users in my area at least are home owners and in full time employment, such is the increase in mortgages, council tax, energy and food outstripping wages, they are unable to make ends meet. it has created a new class in the UK the Working Poor.
Its an utter disgrace
The gulf between rich and poor has grown massively in the last 20 years in the UK at least.

 

[Rodcx500z]

There are a lot of genuine diasbled people who are still suffering after the purge Duncan Smith inflicted on them, my wife included but she fought it got to court and the shithouses from DWP didn't even turn up, but i agree there are thousands milking the system loads round were i live the problem is prooving it

 

[old dog new tricks]

There are a lot of genuine diasbled people who are still suffering after the purge Duncan Smith inflicted on them, my wife included but she fought it got to court and the shithouses from DWP didn't even turn up, but i agree there are thousands milking the system loads round were i live the problem is prooving it

I agree that many are genuinely unable to work I am not disputing that at all.

it just seems all the previous attempts to fix this go after the genuine cases or easy ones and do nothing about those who know who to play the system

 

[Rodcx500z]

I agree that many are genuinely unable to work I am not disputing that at all.

it just seems all the previous attempts to fix this go after the genuine cases or easy ones and do nothing about those who know who to play the system

This is the case were genuine people get targeted, there was a famous case in Scotland were a woman had her motability car taken away which she used for going to work, the local council finished up paying vast amounts of money on taxi fares far more than the car it's self was worth

 

[Brew_DD2]

I am sure some of the 9.38 million could be persuaded to work.

The vast majority of that number aren't looking for a job, and if they aren't in receipt of jobseekers allowance, I'd be interested to hear how we go about persuading them to work.

About 2.5 million are full time students.

And from that article...

"The main reasons that 3.5 million over-50s were out of the job market were illness and early retirement. Almost nobody who retired early said they wanted to return to work."

The rest are unpaid carers and the long-term sick/disabled.

In amongst that there will be a number gaming the system, but in the grand scheme of things, the benefit of trying to weedle them out are far outweighed by the genuine people caught in the crossfire (as Rod has highlighted) and frankly what sane employer would want to take on people who've made it their life's work to avoid paid employment, even if you ascertain that they weren't a genuine welfare claimant?

 

[JockyBrewer]

I grabbed the latest numbers from the ONS for the 16-64 year old 'economically inactive' group:

Status	Total	Student	Looking after family / home	Temp sick	Long-term sick	Discouraged workers	Retired	Other
Wants a job	1,719​	351​	366​	80​	619​	10​	-​	293​
Doesn't want a job	7,715​	2,203​	1,366​	125​	2,221​	-​	1,064​	736​
Total	9,434​	2,544​	1,726​	205​	2,830​	15​	1,089​	1,025​

(Discouraged workers are those who are not looking for work because they believe no jobs are available)

 

[Rodcx500z]

I had a bit of luck and grabbed it with both hands voluntary redundancy back in 2017 aged 63, i had well had enough of work. 2 days after i left i got a phone call from a local bakery who had got my number off the chairman of the bakery i left sadly for him i was not interested

 

[pilgrimhudd]

The amount of people gaming the system, (though we all know one) is an absolutely miniscule percentage of the total.

 

[Brew_DD2]

The amount of people gaming the system, (though we all know one) is an absolutely miniscule percentage of the total.

And also in terms of cost to the economy. It's another easy target for populism though. Certainly diverts people's attention from big tax evaders etc, which costs us 10s of billions each year.

 

[An Ankoù]

The amount of people gaming the system, (though we all know one) is an absolutely miniscule percentage of the total.

If we all know one, why aren't we dobbing them in. They're criminals and they're making it more difficult for the genuine cases. Failing to do show shows moral cowardice and complicity in a criminal act. Would we treat a suspected paedo with the "sympathy"?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I agree that many are genuinely unable to work I am not disputing that at all.

I agree but taking the figure below I am sure many of these people could do something being that work from home or some non physical work.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I agree but taking the figure below I am sure many of these people could do something being that work from home or some non physical work.


View attachment 101133View attachment 101134

There are plenty of vacancies out there, but most of the jobs needing filled (that used to be filled by EU residents) are in agriculture, healthcare and hospitality, and don't meet that criteria.