Free Scotland

[Brew_DD2]

The difference being the small countries of Europe have not been entwined to other countries for the past 300 years. Trying to unravel the past will only lead to disappointment. A vote has been held and I would imagine should another vote be held the margin to stay in the union would be higher. Just my considerations.

Who has said anything about unraveling? You can't physically undo the past. We're talking about a political union coming to an end. I don't know why people get so misty-eyed over this. Especially people whom it doesn't affect.

 

[An Ankoù]

The difference being the small countries of Europe have not been entwined to other countries for the past 300 years. Trying to unravel the past will only lead to disappointment. A vote has been held and I would imagine should another vote be held the margin to stay in the union would be higher. Just my considerations.

Well that's not quite the case. Just look at the relationship between England and France, for example, over the last millenium. The relationship between England and Denmark just prior to the Norman conquest. Most of all, the Intermarriage between royal families to make alliances and avoid wars. Our own royal family is of a German house in spite of them changing their name to Windsor in 1917 because of the anti-german sentiment at the time.

 

[Bosch]

The difference being the small countries of Europe have not been entwined to other countries for the past 300 years.

Untrue.
The continent of Europe was dominated by empires until 1918. Most of central and Eastern Europe made up the Autro Hungarian empire.
Before this central Europe was linked together by the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[foxy]

Whose said anything about unraveling? You can't physically undo the past. We're talking about a political union coming to an end. I don't know why people get so misty-eyed over this. Especially people whom it doesn't affect.

Your right it doesn't effect me. How many referendums do you need? Do you want one annually? If a referendum went to a break from the UK do you have others the following years to see whether Scotland wants to become part of the fold again?

The question is, are you OK with an ongoing denial of this, and if so.... why?

I thought the SNP were in power during the last referendum. Just because a party is in power doesn't automatically mean the populace agree with them. Hence the result of the referendum.

 

[foxy]

Well that's not quite the case. Just look at the relationship between England and France, for example, over the last millenium. The relationship between England and Denmark just prior to the Norman conquest. Most of all, the Intermarriage between royal families to make alliances and avoid wars. Our own royal family is of a German house in spite of them changing their name to Windsor in 1917 because of the anti-german sentiment at the time.

But they weren't under the one political spectrum. As are the united kingdom.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Your right it doesn't effect me. How many referendums do you need? Do you want one annually? If a referendum went to a break from the UK do you have others the following years to see whether Scotland wants to become part of the fold again?

I thought the SNP were in power during the last referendum. Just because a party is in power doesn't automatically mean the populace agree with them. Hence the result of the referendum.

No, you are absolutely correct. We cannot speculate on the result of the referendum, yet various people choose to do so as a reason not to have one.

As to how many, its clear there has been several years and some pretty big changes since the last one. But more than that, since you avoided addressing the issue.... Having the referendum appears to be the will of the Scottish people, and if an SNP majority is returned on a single issue ticket, that fact wpuld shift from "appears to be" and move to "undeniable, stonewall fact".

So my question remains, should we reach that point which is now the SNP plan to get one, should the referendum on participation in a "union of consent" be granted or denied and why?

Edit to add.... If I pointed out that you had a General election 3 years ago and voted in a govt, why do you need another, I would rightly be laughed out of the building. Democracy isn't a one shot deal thankfully, and a single issue making people act like it is, is both strange and alarming.

 

[foxy]

No, you are absolutely correct. We cannot speculate on the result of the referendum, yet various people choose to do so as a reason not to have one.

As to how many, its clear there has been several years and some pretty big changes since the last one. But more than that, since you avoided addressing the issue.... Having the referendum appears to be the will of the Scottish people, and if an SNP majority is returned on a single issue ticket, that fact wpuld shift from "appears to be" and move to "undeniable, stonewall fact".

So my question remains, should we reach that point which is now the SNP plan to get one, should the referendum on participation in a "union of consent" be granted or denied and why?

Edit to add.... If I pointed out that you had a General election 3 years ago and voted in a govt, why do you need another, I would rightly be laughed out of the building. Democracy isn't a one shot deal thankfully, and a single issue making people act like it is, is both strange and alarming.

Democracy is what it is. The government is in charge, do you really want a referendum every 5 minutes when you have a democratically elected government to make the decisions for you. Or do you want a referendum on every decision the government of the day makes?

 

[Brewnaldo]

Democracy is what it is. The government is in charge, do you really want a referendum every 5 minutes when you have a democratically elected government to make the decisions for you. Or do you want a referendum on every decision the government of the day makes?

No I want the democratic will of the Scottish people to be respected.

Bit off to boil that principle down to "do you want a referendum every five minutes"

 

[An Ankoù]

Democracy is what it is. The government is in charge, do you really want a referendum every 5 minutes when you have a democratically elected government to make the decisions for you. Or do you want a referendum on every decision the government of the day makes?

That's muddying the water. The issue is whether Scotland is a distinct country with the right of self-determination or not. Independence has become an issue since brexit and the people of Scotland may well decide to grin and bear it. But do they have a right to put it to the test?
The Government is in charge only as long as member countries consent to being under the charge of said Government otherwise they are not countries, just regions. That's what this is all about.

 

[Agentgonzo]

No I want the democratic will of the Scottish people to be respected.

Bit off to boil that principle down to "do you want a referendum every five minutes"

The standard counterargument to a referendum is to spout garbage like "should we carry on having them until we get the answer we want?" or "should we have one every year?".

Trolling 101: make up a stupid claim that is tangentially related to the other person's argument; imply that's what they are thinking; make them defend your stupid claim to deflect from their actual point. This tactic works out very well for politicians too!

 

[samale]

Democracy is what it is. The government is in charge, do you really want a referendum every 5 minutes when you have a democratically elected government to make the decisions for you. Or do you want a referendum on every decision the government of the day makes?

I really don't understand your view point. Brexit has changed everything, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. You can't cherry pick democracy to suit your own agenda.
Surely England should be trying to sell the advantages of staying, not voting to block

 

[foxy]

I really don't understand your view point. Brexit has changed everything, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. You can't cherry pick democracy to suit your own agenda.
Surely England should be trying to sell the advantages of staying, not voting to block

Well why doesn't Germany or France go back to the state system? They united long after the UK did. A vote was taken, adhere to the vote, that is democracy. Sure have another vote, but at least give another generation the chance.

 

[foxy]

That's muddying the water. The issue is whether Scotland is a distinct country with the right of self-determination or not. Independence has become an issue since brexit and the people of Scotland may well decide to grin and bear it. But do they have a right to put it to the test?
The Government is in charge only as long as member countries consent to being under the charge of said Government otherwise they are not countries, just regions. That's what this is all about.

I am not a gambling man but I would say that commonsense would prevail and another referendum would end up the same way. If it did go the other way I would say that Scotland then will get the Tishy end of the stick.

 

[An Ankoù]

I don't know about Germany. France doesn't have States, it has regions. The shape of France has come about through wars, alliances and conquest. No voting or democracy involved. The Duchy of Brittany joined France when Anne de Bretagne married the King of France, and then his successor when he died.
Your argument makes as much sense as proposing that Queensland and Victoria were separate countries. My reference, above, to free Tasmania, was a joke.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Well why doesn't Germany or France go back to the state system? They united long after the UK did. A vote was taken, adhere to the vote, that is democracy. Sure have another vote, but at least give another generation the chance.

I'm sure if a political party campaigned on that basis, and the people voted for it, then that's what would happen.

Can you point out who hasn't adhered to the result of the 2014 referendum?

 

[An Ankoù]

I am not a gambling man but I would say that commonsense would prevail and another referendum would end up the same way. If it did go the other way I would say that Scotland then will get the Tishy end of the stick.

You may well be right. But the issue is about Scotland right to make that choice.

 

[Stan's Brew]

I don't want to open old arguments, but the referendum is not being granted because the Law says it needs the approval of t (ie UK) Government and they have said it will not be forthcoming. That's it. That's the law.

That tells us the who, what and how but not the why? The why is steeped in history going back to... the Vikings, Magna Carta and now it appears the Brexit vote has rattled the elite so much they can't risk their fortunes on this can of worms - all to do with power, power of the monarch (and those who serve him).

 

[foxy]

I'm sure if a political party campaigned on that basis, and the people voted for it, then that's what would happen.

Can you point out who hasn't adhered to the result of the 2014 referendum?

The ones asking for another referendum. Has so much changed in 8 years.

You may well be right. But the issue is about Scotland right to make that choice.

As they did. The choice was to stay part of the UK

 

[Brewnaldo]

The ones asking for another referendum. Has so much changed in 8 years.

As they did. The choice was to stay part of the UK

In what way is asking for another referendum not respecting the result? The result was to remain in the UK. Have we low key left the UK without telling anyone?

A huge part of the No campaign was centred around EU membership. Only by voting no can Scotland remain part of the EU they said.

So yes, an enormous change.

 

[foxy]

In what way is asking for another referendum not respecting the result? The result was to remain in the UK. Have we low key left the UK without telling anyone?

A huge part of the No campaign was centred around EU membership. Only by voting no can Scotland remain part of the EU they said.

So yes, an enormous change.

But brexit was voted on by the whole of the UK! This was after Scotland had voted in favour of staying part of the UK.So that doesn't hold water, you can't split hairs. You all voted as a nation, it wasn't a England Northern Ireland Scotland and Wales vote.