Free Scotland

[Stan's Brew]

I mis-attributed the history of Scotland only as far back as the Vikings, I am reliably informed that the modern Scotland started when the Romans tried to invade and the Picts repelled, resulting in Hadrian's wall, happy to be schooled further if anyone wishes

 

[An Ankoù]

How Scotland may perform independently isn't really relevant to the OP's question.

In a union of consent, should Scotland be able to decide when it holds a vote on the continuation of the Union? If not, why not? And what does it mean for the nature of that Union.

Spot on.
And to put in my penn'orth about government. It would be a great opportunity to get rid of FPTP and introduce proportional representation. The compromises required to form coalitions tend to level out extremes.

 

[foxy]

Fallacy. Can show me the piece of legislation that explicitly states a necessary passage of time before another referendum can be held?

I'll save you the time. You can't.

Who said it was legislation. Not me. It was agreed between the parties involved. Salmon and Sturgeon.

 

[foxy]

How Scotland may perform independently isn't really relevant to the OP's question.

In a union of consent, should Scotland be able to decide when it holds a vote on the continuation of the Union? If not, why not? And what does it mean for the nature of that Union.

It means that Scotland will be out in the cold. Of course how Scotland performs is relevant. The answer will be, not very well.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Who said it was legislation. Not me. It was agreed between the parties involved. Salmon and Sturgeon.

No it wasn't. It was a comment made in the run up about it being a once in a generation oppprtunity. It was never, ever part of any agreement.

And, I'm afraid if it was ever part of an "agreement", future governments are not bound by agreements made by previous ones. That's before we even get into the obvious points to be made about what an "agreement" made by this current version of the tory party is worth.

 

[foxy]

No it wasn't. It was a comment made in the run up about it being a once in a generation oppprtunity. It was never, ever part of any agreement.

And, I'm afraid if it was ever part of an "agreement", future governments are not bound by agreements made by previous ones. That's before we even get into the obvious points to be made about what an "agreement" made by this current version of the tory party is worth.

No one has said it was part of an agreement! It is what Salmond and Sturgeon agreed to. A handshake deal. The UK is now going down a precipice, breaking the union now will see Scotland going further down the slope than England.

 

[An Ankoù]

I don't understand why Foxy is so adamant in his refusing Scotland its right to self determination. Perhaps he's confusing it with Catalonia! Catalonia is an autonomia, not a country. Scotland is a country. Or is it?
And there's no evidence to say that Scotland couldn't manage its affairs better alone, yes, even economic!
They said that about the UK and Brexit. The fact that they were right is largely due to incompetence.

So what's your agenda @foxy? Why don't you want Scotland to have the dignity and autonomy it claims for itself? Speak up.

 

[Brewnaldo]

No one has said it was part of an agreement! It is what Salmond and Sturgeon agreed to. A handshake deal. The UK is now going down a precipice, breaking the union now will see Scotland going further down the slope than England.

No, it wasn't agreed in any meaningful way.

The performance of indy scotland is not the subject matter, and is a matter of pure speculation. The conditions under which a referendum should be granted is the matter at hand, for the here and now.

Why can Australia prosper on its own but Scotland can't?

 

[Brewnaldo]

No one has said it was part of an agreement! It is what Salmond and Sturgeon agreed to.

This bit tho.....

Mind blown

 

[Gingerbrews]

Fallacy. Can show me the piece of legislation that explicitly states a necessary passage of time before another referendum can be held?

I'll save you the time. You can't.

If you want to be picky, show me the legislation that allows a further refendum, (ie what the Supreme Court ruled on). I'll save you the time, there isn't any.

However there has already been a referendum which voted No.

 

[Brewnaldo]

If you want to be picky, show me the legislation that allows a further refendum, (ie what the Supreme Court ruled on). I'll save you the time, there isn't any.

However there has already been a referendum which voted No.

Current govts can't legislate against future govts. The supreme Court only stated that Scotland can't grant the referendum by itself. It made no comment whatsoever on when or whether there should be another as its not in their remit to do so.

Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Agentgonzo]

If you want to be picky, show me the legislation that allows a further refendum, (ie what the Supreme Court ruled on). I'll save you the time, there isn't any.

However there has already been a referendum which voted No.

I want to join in! Show me the legislation that allows me to eat a sausage whilst wearing a beret and singing the national anthem on a river barge.

I'll save your time. There isn't any.

However, yesterday I ate a falafel wrap for lunch on a cafe.

 

[foxy]

No, it wasn't agreed in any meaningful way.

The performance of indy scotland is not the subject matter, and is a matter of pure speculation. The conditions under which a referendum should be granted is the matter at hand, for the here and now.

Why can Australia prosper on its own but Scotland can't?

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

I don't understand why Foxy is so adamant in his refusing Scotland its right to self determination. Perhaps he's confusing it with Catalonia! Catalonia is an autonomia, not a country. Scotland is a country. Or is it?
And there's no evidence to say that Scotland couldn't manage its affairs better alone, yes, even economic!
They said that about the UK and Brexit. The fact that they were right is largely due to incompetence.

So what's your agenda @foxy? Why don't you want Scotland to have the dignity and autonomy it claims for itself? Speak up.

No agenda from me. I doubt very much Scotland could manage their own affairs. No proof they won't but no proof they will. We have the same problem, no not a problem, stupidity of Western Australia becoming a country. Unity is far better than division. Why hasn't Brexit worked? Because the UK imports most of its produce. The trade balance is in the EU's favour. Should Scotland become independent it takes about 12 years to get into the EU so what is Scotland going to do in that time? What have they got to trade? Are they going to be importing more than they are exporting? Yes to that.

 

[Brewnaldo]

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

No agenda from me. I doubt very much Scotland could manage their own affairs. No proof they won't but no proof they will. We have the same problem, no not a problem, stupidity of Western Australia becoming a country. Unity is far better than division. Why hasn't Brexit worked? Because the UK imports most of its produce. The trade balance is in the EU's favour. Should Scotland become independent it takes about 12 years to get into the EU so what is Scotland going to do in that time? What have they got to trade? Are they going to be importing more than they are exporting? Yes to that.

If you can point me to the handshake agreement and the given word, that would allow me to have a think about what that's worth.

Clearly you have a full understanding of the trade balances and Scotlands potential exports. I cant claim to have that. I do know that Scotland can export an enormous amount of of renewable energy to England for which it does not currently gain anything due to the national nature of the grid. And also a large volume of fresh water, for which England struggle. That's leaving aside other large industries such as oil and gas, food and drink etc.

I'm not talking about whether WA can make it. I'm talking about Australia as a whole. Why can it function as a country where Scotland can't?

Also, the 12 years into the EU is guesswork and speculation, and is utterly irrelevant to what I have asked you previously and the topic at hand.

Under what circumstances should a referendum be granted? If you want to say never, just be honest and say never. That's cool.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

No agenda from me. I doubt very much Scotland could manage their own affairs. No proof they won't but no proof they will. We have the same problem, no not a problem, stupidity of Western Australia becoming a country. Unity is far better than division. Why hasn't Brexit worked? Because the UK imports most of its produce. The trade balance is in the EU's favour. Should Scotland become independent it takes about 12 years to get into the EU so what is Scotland going to do in that time? What have they got to ha

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

No agenda from me. I doubt very much Scotland could manage their own affairs. No proof they won't but no proof they will. We have the same problem, no not a problem, stupidity of Western Australia becoming a country. Unity is far better than division. Why hasn't Brexit worked? Because the UK imports most of its produce. The trade balance is in the EU's favour. Should Scotland become independent it takes about 12 years to get into the EU so what is Scotland going to do in that time? What have they got to trade? Are they going to be importing more than they are exporting? Yes to that.

England's (and by extension Britain (not NI)) has muffed up the balance of trade. It imports from the EU with no real restrictions, but won't join a customs union so it's exports there are reduced. Britain (especially England) needs to produce more domestically, but it won't allow European seasonal labour to do the jobs that the English won't or can't do. All this for political positioning. That's incompetence for you. I think Scotland are a lot brighter than that and that's a good reason for wanting out. I'm English and I want out!!! All because the Conservatives are in hock to the ERG and the tabloid rags. Oh and general innate scumminess.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Who said it was legislation. Not me. It was agreed between the parties involved. Salmon and Sturgeon.

No legal basis. Holds as much weight as "the only way to guarantee Scotland's future in the EU is to remain in the UK".

 

[Brew_DD2]

I don't understand why Foxy is so adamant in his refusing Scotland its right to self determination. Perhaps he's confusing it with Catalonia! Catalonia is an autonomia, not a country. Scotland is a country. Or is it?
And there's no evidence to say that Scotland couldn't manage its affairs better alone, yes, even economic!
They said that about the UK and Brexit. The fact that they were right is largely due to incompetence.

So what's your agenda @foxy? Why don't you want Scotland to have the dignity and autonomy it claims for itself? Speak up.

He's a GB fetishist. Get misty-eyed over warm beer and all things British.

 

[Brew_DD2]

If you want to be picky, show me the legislation that allows a further refendum, (ie what the Supreme Court ruled on). I'll save you the time, there isn't any.

However there has already been a referendum which voted No.

The Supreme Court ruling was correct. There is no law that allows for Scotland for legislate for further referenda.

The question at hand is why? And how does that fit with the idea of a union of consent?

 

[Brew_DD2]

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

Don't you run a business?

 

[Brew_DD2]

I think a meaningfull way is a handshake and the given word.

No agenda from me. I doubt very much Scotland could manage their own affairs. No proof they won't but no proof they will. We have the same problem, no not a problem, stupidity of Western Australia becoming a country. Unity is far better than division. Why hasn't Brexit worked? Because the UK imports most of its produce. The trade balance is in the EU's favour. Should Scotland become independent it takes about 12 years to get into the EU so what is Scotland going to do in that time? What have they got to trade? Are they going to be importing more than they are exporting? Yes to that.

Brexit hasn't worked because the UK government became pig-headed to appease the right of their party, resulting in us leaving the single market. No Scottish government would be stupid enough to impose barriers to trade with the rUK through rigid ideology.

Then there was the little problem of the GFA and how Brexit is incompatible with it.