Free Scotland

[Brew_DD2]

Also, the 12 years into the EU is guesswork and speculation, and is utterly irrelevant to what I have asked you previously and the topic at hand.

And as far as I'm aware there would be no impediment to joining the single market immediately.

 

[Brewnaldo]

And as far as I'm aware there would be no impediment to joining the single market immediately.

People being unable to seperate the opinion and speculation from the base question on this topic is depressing. Or it's deliberate, which is both worrying and depressing.

Like most, I have my issues with the SNP. They are, if anything, growing year on year, but Nicola Sturgeon is doing a very good, slow methodical job of exposing the willingness of Westmisnter and their compliant media to deny the will of the Scottish people. Its not going fast enough for some, but if you take this thread as a cross section, the outright refusal of people to answer the question "when would you grant a referendum" is making a lot of people look very, very stupid.

The opportunities to then expose them as utter hypocrites, liars, and deniers of democracy come almost too thick and fast to catch them all. You are seeing the entire play book of bad faith debating being vomited out in real time, on a population level

 

[An Ankoù]

He's a GB fetishist. Get misty-eyed over warm beer and all things British.

Warm beer, in a pewter, mug, wearing a flat cap, at a table near the fire at the Local, while listening to Noddy Holder regaling us with his favourite Christmas Carol, dog under the table, and lubricating the old vocal cordage in anticipation of a jolly old sing along to "My Old Man Said Foller the Baand" belted out on the old joanna later Ron, chips and a packet of woodbines on the way home, and a crafty pee against the newsagent's front door.
Now you're talking!

 

[Bernie]

People being unable to seperate the opinion and speculation from the base question on this topic is depressing. Or it's deliberate, which is both worrying and depressing.

Like most, I have my issues with the SNP. They are, if anything, growing year on year, but Nicola Sturgeon is doing a very good, slow methodical job of exposing the willingness of Westmisnter and their compliant media to deny the will of the Scottish people. Its not going fast enough for some, but if you take this thread as a cross section, the outright refusal of people to answer the question "when would you grant a referendum" is making a lot of people look very, very stupid.

The opportunities to then expose them as utter hypocrites, liars, and deniers of democracy come almost too thick and fast to catch them all. You are seeing the entire play book of bad faith debating being vomited out in real time, on a population level

Why not allow the areas Scotland that want independence to secede while the others stay in the Union?

 

[Brewnaldo]

Why not allow the areas Scotland that want independence to secede while the others stay in the Union?

What would be the precedence for that? Why would anyone even argue such a thing unless trying to deliberately continue muddying the waters?

Is there any evidence of political will to do so, backed up thumping wins at the ballot box for a number of years now?

So many questions.....

 

[Brew_DD2]

Why not allow the areas Scotland that want independence to secede while the others stay in the Union?

Scotland is a country with defined borders. If you're arguing for federalism, that's fair enough, as that's a different argument.

 

[Brewnaldo]

So the best of my knowledge, we still haven't had an explanation from anyone as to why Scotland shouldn't be allowed to vote on withdrawal from a "Union of Consent" beyond "but they already had a vote". This point is obviously easy to dismantle, given that we voted to join the EU, yet a vote came in which we left, and also that we have General Elections every few years with ability to change your mind being a cornerstone of democracy.

We also haven't had an answer to "under what circumstances should a vote be allowed" other than some suggestions that an arbitrarily arrived at amount to of time should be allowed to pass, most frequently mentioned as a the completely subjective "generation".


Is this really the best we can do when arguing to deny the mandate of a repeatedly elected govt/majority of Scottish MPs to UK government??

Please.... Someone restore my faith in the UK population to be able to actually think and reason.....

Under what circumstances should the people of Scotland be granted a referendum on Independence?

 

[Bernie]

Scotland is a country with defined borders. If you're arguing for federalism, that's fair enough, as that's a different argument.

It seems democratically fair to allow regions that prefer to tay in the Union to do so.

 

[Brew_DD2]

It seems democratically fair to allow regions that prefer to tay in the Union to do so.

Where do you draw the line? Scotland is a recognised country. If a region wished to secede from a country, I'm sure there would be a process for that, but it's not really what is being discussed here.

 

[Brewnaldo]

It seems democratically fair to allow regions that prefer to tay in the Union to do so.

But not countries within the UK to remain in the EU, apparently

 

[Bernie]

But not countries within the UK to remain in the EU, apparently

The trouble with the EU is that it isn't a country but a mish-mash of treaties, with not one country on equal status.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Where do you draw the line? Scotland is a recognised country. If a region wished to secede from a country, I'm sure there would be a process for that, but it's not really what is being discussed here.

Correct. Scotland could only have entered into a union of nations by virtue of being a nation itself.

Once again, the concept that lots of people seem to be Implying but aren't prepared to say, is that Scotland has been absorbed into England, and is now a region of England. That's the logical follow on if you believe that Scotland itself should not be allowed to determine if and when it leaves said Union

 

[Brewnaldo]

But not countries within the UK to remain in the EU, apparently

What's that got to do with democratic fairness?

 

[Bernie]

Correct. Scotland could only have entered into a union of nations by virtue of being a nation itself.

Once again, the concept that lots of people seem to be Implying but aren't prepared to say, is that Scotland has been absorbed into England,

Britain

 

[Brew_DD2]

Britain

In which case England can't leave the Union either?

 

[Brewnaldo]

See if a UK party campaigned a UK GE on the basis of having a second EU referendum, and won a majority, thus forming the govt of the UK, who would be there to stop them having said referendum despite the people indicating they wanted it, because "we already had one?"

Just curious as to how high up the denial of democracy goes.....

 

[dad_of_jon]

So the best of my knowledge, we still haven't had an explanation from anyone as to why Scotland shouldn't be allowed to vote on withdrawal from a "Union of Consent" beyond "but they already had a vote". This point is obviously easy to dismantle, given that we voted to join the EU, yet a vote came in which we left, and also that we have General Elections every few years with ability to change your mind being a cornerstone of democracy.

We also haven't had an answer to "under what circumstances should a vote be allowed" other than some suggestions that an arbitrarily arrived at amount to of time should be allowed to pass, most frequently mentioned as a the completely subjective "generation".


Is this really the best we can do when arguing to deny the mandate of a repeatedly elected govt/majority of Scottish MPs to UK government??

Please.... Someone restore my faith in the UK population to be able to actually think and reason.....

Under what circumstances should the people of Scotland be granted a referendum on Independence?

I totally agree with the right to choose. And that a once only choice doesn't suit democracy as demographics change over time. As Brexit has shown some choices take so damn long to implement that there should be a reasonable period of time before revisiting a decision. We can't flip flop in and out of the EU. And doing the hokey cokey with independence isn't a good idea either. If I get a chance to abolish the Welsh assembly I'll vote for that. And if I'm on the losing side can we make it best of 3.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Guys calm down have a beer relax, if Scotland wants to be free i am sure they will tell us, now grab a beer and seriously think about this in a clear defined logical way, do you really think the powers that be really care about what is said on here no nor do i, now you are all calm and peaceful do you think life is short with so much to do yes so do i, have you ever stopped to think about why you are not in politics go on sit down and really think about it try and come to a rational answer, is it because some of things you do would hurt some people more than others or you could not live with some of the disissoins you had to make or they make you uncomfortable, think about long and hard

 

[Brew_DD2]

Guys calm down have a beer relax, if Scotland wants to be free i am sure they will tell us, now grab a beer and seriously think about this in a clear defined logical way, do you really think the powers that be really care about what is said on here no nor do i, now you are all calm and peaceful do you think life is short with so much to do yes so do i, have you ever stopped to think about why you are not in politics go on sit down and really think about it try and come to a rational answer, is it because some of things you do would hurt some people more than others or you could not live with some of the disissoins you had to make or they make you uncomfortable, think about long and hard

Christ! What time did you start today?

 

[samale]

Christ! What time did you start today?

Rod's on the moonshine