Electric cars.

[Larse]

That's 2 more on the ignore list

Maybe forums aren't for you.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

That's 2 more on the ignore list

You are going to end up talking to yourself at this rate Rod

If you don't reply i will know i was put on the list before today

 

[Rodcx500z]

No you won't be on it Chippy

 

[Nicks90]

That's 2 more on the ignore list

Ohohohoh I bet that's me!
Feels like a little win right there!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What do Autotrader know about the used car market anyway?
https://plc.autotrader.co.uk/news-v...-trade-price-cuts-fade-into-rear-view-mirror/
Auto Trader assesses over 800,000 daily pricing observations from across the whole retail market. It shows that the average price of a used car last month was £16,408, down -7.4% year-on-year (YoY) on a like-for-like basis but the lowest annual decline since December 2023.

Month-on-month, the market has risen 1%...Used electric cars performed well in October too with used BEV prices rising (2.1%) MoM for the first time in two years, likely due to sustained demand throughout the year, renewing retailer confidence in the second-hand electric market. Speed of sale for the 3-5 year old electric segment sits at an impressive 19 days, one day faster than September and the fastest across all segments. [versus 29 days for the market as a whole]

 

[hoppyscotty]

I've had an EV for over 18 months. I've driven through England. France, Spain, Netherlands etc often doing 400 miles in a day. In all that time, I have only had to queue once for a charger, and that was for no more than a minute. I have encountered vanishingly few broken chargers.

Most top ups take no longer than going to the loo and having a coffee and leg stretch.

I don't drive a Tesla.

And yet my experience is very different.

Usually have to queue for a charger (Tesla driver here yes there are alot of Tesla chargers...but there are alot of Tesla's and when a non-Tesla uses a Tesla charger it usually takes up two stalls because of the location of the charger port) and usually have limited amount of charge because they are so busy so want to limit charge time to increase capacity. Driving in the continent if you stay on the autoroutes then it is alot better than in the UK and generally pretty good depending which autoroute you're on, but often you have to drive a number of miles off the autoroute to a shopping centre, or hotel car park, on the outskirts of a town or city, so another 5 to 10 minutes of driving to and the same again to get back onto the autoroute to charge...then hanging around a shopping centre for 40 minutes or so to charge, which when you are driving 400 miles and having to stop off 3 or 4 times to cover that mileage it becomes a bit tedious especially when in my previous ICE car we'd only need to stop for a toilet break and had plenty of range without having to refuel - and even with the wife and kids in tow a toilet stop doesnt take an hour so the nonsense about 'you can charge while to have a toilet stop' is nonsense.

And then you have to choose between range and time...want to maximise efficiency then you have to drive slower and the journey takes even longer. Want to exploit the higher speed limits on the continent then you pay dearly with range and at least one additional, most likely inconvenient stop to charge, which means leaving for the ferry port two hours earlier than you would with an ICE car...one hour for the stop you know you're going to have to make and an hour contingency just in case - get a flat tyre? the swapping out the wheel or waiting for the French equivalent to the RAC or AA eats into your charging time - I know from experience.

Then go cross country trying to find chargers without doing massive detour becomes a massive planning exercise requiring several apps, a plan B or plan C in case there is a problem with the solitary charger in the middle of the French countryside for miles becomes very limiting and destroys any spontaneity you might desire to just pop out for the day. was in the Loire a couple of years ago on a cross country jaunt and needing a charge en route. Two chargers were not working so had to then go on a detour to find one which took us down to less than 5% charge, so was last chance saloon if that third charger was not working. Then stop off in a nice Frech city...drive to the EV charging bay to charge while you park...good luck with that...all taken so do you wait while one frees up eating into your tourist time or part up and worry about charging when you leave? All these decisions you have to make as an EV driver that are just not even a micro consideration if you have an ICE car.

Then depleting most of my charge to drive from mid-France to a ferry terminal with no chargers at the ferry terminal and getting off at the UK side at 11pm with hardly any charge at night then having to drive 10 minutes out of my way to find the nearest charger and hang around for an hour to charge in the middle of an industrial estate where everything is closed with no facilities around and not setting off for home til long after midnight and getting home a good couple of hours or so after you would have with an ICE car. Last time I did that in a diesel I had enough range in one tank to go from mid France to home, so again not even a consideration.

Those who claim the charging is as convenient as ICE are either massive propagandists or have been very very lucky. We've not even begun to scratch the surface of what is needed to be built to ge an anyway near half decent and convenient charging network that is as convenient as ICE cars...and it really really needs to be.

And before anyone tries to discredit my experience by saying I'm anti ev...I'm not...I have no fight in this battle, apart from the thing about EV's not being fun to drive (but I'm happy to have a second fun ICE car so not even blaming that). My experiences are genuine and have been a real PITA. Some have had different experiences for sure but the fact I've had the experienced I've had demonstrates that the network is not yet anywhere near where it needs to be to replicate a similar experience to an ICE car. For 95% of my driving my EV is fine. But it's that last 5% where I want and need everything to be easy and convenience and therefore carries alot more weight than the 95% of the rest of the short local journeys. The next time I go for a jaunt into the continent I'll seriously consider renting a Diesel car.

We'll see as time goes on, but right now while we're a two car family then there is no way we'd have two EV's, we'll alway maintain an ICE car until things significantly improve.

And waffling on about cost all the time...convenience is alot more valuable to most people than money so that argument will never land. The money always finds you wether you drive an ICE or EV. You will end up paying eventually...always. All cars are just a massive cash cow for our political overlords. They will ream you till you squeal, then when you start to squeal they'll ream you some more. Nobody is escaping it...you might think you are but you just haven't seen how they are reaming you yet. EV's are more costly to buy, the depreciate more, they are more costly to insure.. You are paying..the money always finds you. Pride comes before a fall...all the gloating EV people have a rude awakening coming.

 

[Rodcx500z]

And yet my experience is very different

Well said HS, i am off to Devon on Monday for a short break in the 1.0L Juke, 268 miles each way, i will do one no fuel break on the M5 and will still have over a 1/4 of tank left. will do the same on the way back, a lot on here think i am anti ev i am not i just don't think it is the way forward

 

[Larse]

Nobody is escaping it...you might think you are but you just haven't seen how they are reaming you yet. EV's are more costly to buy, the depreciate more, they are more costly to insure.. You are paying..the money always finds you. Pride comes before a fall...all the gloating EV people have a rude awakening coming.

EVs are now much closer in price to their equivalent ICE. 12% according to New Automotive. Payback of that difference is less than one year in 30% of cases. Cost of insurance differs by model, but by and large relates to differences in performance, where only the smallest EVs will have comparable performance to an average petrol car. Most EVs will have in excess of 200bhp and many are easily double that.

For no apparent reason, servicing costs are never compared. EVs are much cheaper to service. Many manufacturers give free servicing for the length of the vehicle warranty.

I wouldn't dream of calling your experience into question, but since we're speaking anecdotally, my experience is the diametric opposite of yours. I intend to drive on the continent in the next few months, so I'll be interested to see if your experience is borne out by mine.

As for your last sentence. Wut?

 

[JockyBrewer]

EVs are only more expensive now because the makers are choosing to make more expensive models of cars.

When looking at second hand Hyundai Konas recently cars I found that the price difference between an EV and Hybrid was almost nothing once you were looking at similar spec, age and mileage cars.

 

[MashBag]

I thought this was a plug thing.
Only certain newer cars have the right tesla "port" to be able to use the tesla charging network. Toyota have been on about adopting it.

 

[AlBrew]

I thought this was a plug thing.
Only certain newer cars have the right tesla "port" to be able to use the tesla charging network. Toyota have been on about adopting it.

Ah I think it's just the US that has the Tesla NACS plug, Europe is all CCS on the Tesla chargers.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Ah I think it's just the US that has the Tesla NACS plug, Europe is all CCS on the Tesla chargers.

The Tesla connector doesn't support 3 phase power which is required in Europe for high current AC charging. It could have been redesigned to incorporate it, but the CCS standard was already here.

The weird thing is that on the continent something like 80% of Tesla superchargers are available to anyone. In the UK it's about half that. I can only think that it's an issue of demand, and Tesla will only open up their chargers where they're not too much in use.

 

[Nicks90]

The Tesla connector doesn't support 3 phase power which is required in Europe for high current AC charging. It could have been redesigned to incorporate it, but the CCS standard was already here.

The weird thing is that on the continent something like 80% of Tesla superchargers are available to anyone. In the UK it's about half that. I can only think that it's an issue of demand, and Tesla will only open up their chargers where they're not too much in use.

In the UK Tesla are opening up the v4 chargers, because they have a longer cable, so can be used by most other EV brands without taking up 2 bays (unless you are an audi driver, in which case by default you will park side on to the charger and take up 3 bays because - you know - Audi!)

 

[old dog new tricks]

Not wanting to stoke the fires here but I have been about 6 months with my EV now. Overall it's good to drive, I have a home charger it's convenient but not cheap I was tied a contract so did not have the cheap rate hopefully that changes once my switch to octopus is complete.
Public charging is hit and miss in my area garages are now offering 1 or 2 chargers they are often full or only 1 working. I have no Tesla charger within 60 miles so not worth going there. Council run chargers most are 22kw AC that great my car only takes 10kw AC! The failure rate of chargers is mental. In Scotland it's centrally managed or ment to be at least.
The very few DC chargers are stupidly expensive and make ev ownership not financially viable in my opinion I would be cheaper with an ICE.
My Kona has a decent range so generally I can get away with charging over night.
If I needed to work away or travel in excess of 200 per trip I could not recommend an EV at this point in time in my location at least.
Not anti EV just saying that there is limitations and tipping point where they are not the effective solution, at this point in time at least.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

And yet my experience is very different.

Yes, clearly. The interesting thing (to me) is why is your experience so different?

Usually have to queue for a charger (Tesla driver here yes there are alot of Tesla chargers...

Are you specifically going to Tesla chargepoints? If so, that might explain this. I was recently planning a long journey and I noticed that 1 of the chargepoints I was going to stop at was currently full - all 8 chargers were in use. It was a Tesla chargepoint. Maybe this is common at Tesla places? There must be a reason why my 'only once in 18 months' is your 'usually'.

hour so the nonsense about 'you can charge while to have a toilet stop' is nonsense.

I don't think anyone has actually said that. I often charge while ' going to the loo and having a coffee and leg stretch'. I am talking 20-30 minutes, which is enough to add 150 miles worth.

Thinking about how different our experiences are, my feeling is that perhaps you don't plan long journeys, and perhaps you are usually in a hurry. If you want to do, say, a 400 mile journey with just a 5 minute break in order to get there as soon as possible, then yes an ICE car will be the better choice. But I am not interested in doing that. I don't like to drive for more than about 90 minutes without a break. I plan a long journey on that basis,

all the gloating EV people

Really? This sort of comment isn't helpful. Who is gloating?

I posted about my experiences with an EV on this thread because there are lots of horror stories in the press about the problems people have, totally inadequate infrastructure, etc etc. - but I haven't encountered any of that. You have, which is a shame.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

EV's are more costly to buy, the depreciate more, they are more costly to insure.. You are paying..the money always finds you. Pride comes before a fall...all the gloating EV people have a rude awakening coming.

As it says below there has never been a better time to buy a used BEV and you are wrong about depreciation -

EVs have less depreciation​

AutoTrader found that a 1-year-old EV only loses 12% of its value versus a 24% loss for ICEs. As used EVs are becoming more popular, their residual value has increased. On the contrary, petrol cars have a lot more depreciation, as do diesel vehicles, due to reputation damage in recent years.
https://uk.mer.eco/news/ev-vs-ice-are-electric-cars-worth-it/



There has “never been a better time”tobuy a used BEV as they are significantly more affordable than their combustion-engine counterparts at present.
That's according to Chris Plumb, EV specialist at vehicle valuation firm Cap HPI, who told Autocar that some models “can’t get any cheaper”.
According to Cap HPI, the retail price of a three-year-old electric car is now 8.5% lower than that for an equivalent petrol or diesel. For four-year-old cars, the gulf widens to 14%.
The firm added that values of used EVs had halved since September 2022, regardless of their age or mileage.
Plumb told Autocar that this is a result of supply and demand. EVs’ share of the new car market soared during the pandemic so now, as many of those cars come off company fleets and finance agreements, the supply of second-hand examples is soaring.
“Every month we’re setting new records on the monthly volumes [of EVs] that are coming into the market, which isn’t a surprise, because everything comes back to the new car registrations from three or four years ago,” explained Plumb.
He added that the dip in used prices can also be attributed to the incentives offered by manufacturers on purchases of new electric cars, with the UK's new zero-emission vehicle mandate adding pressure to boost sales volumes. This makes used EVs less attractive in comparison, depressing values.
Plumb elaborated: “Discounts on new [cars], preferable finance terms, sometimes you get a free charger thrown in as a package; when you look at what the offer is on new compared to the nearly new products or used offerings, the new offering sometimes looks a lot more attractive.”
He added that older and leggier EVs can sell much more quickly than nearly new stock, because of their low prices.
Plumb said: “For EVs three or four years old in the market and sitting below £20,000 at retail, so below £18,000 in trade, when we look at [how long they take to sell] from retail adverts, they are now comparable or faster than petrol.
"When you get up to sub-12 months old, there becomes a bit more of a challenge, and that’s the area of the market that’s a bit more fragmented.”
He concluded: “I don't think there has ever been a better time to buy an EV, because of the new car discounts that we're seeing and how much value for money that going used offers.
“Some of these vehicles can't get any cheaper, so we might find that they increase in value over time as consumer demand increases."

​

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[Weatherman]

I collected my first EV yesterday, a Volvo EX30.

It’s awesome. Obviously over the next few months there maybe struggles or issues but we will see

As I assume most EV’s will, you can plan your route and the satnav will take you via empty working chargers as required.

As I’m “maturing” the ability to “no-stop” the 400 mile commute of my youth is no longer needed or wanted.

I hope nothing happens to sour the experience. I did join a couple of forums prior to collection and they were full of issues regarding how you can’t do A or B doesn’t work if you do C however, reading the manual yesterday PM has provided all the answers so far.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[Larse]

The most important thing is to know your charge curve. On mine (155kW max DC charge), it stays above 100kW to 75% and around 150Kw to 45%. So I'd usually wait until below 20% SOC before charging because I can take on 25kWh in 10 minutes and another 20 in the next 10. No real point in continuing to charge above 75% because it takes relatively too much time.

 

[JockyBrewer]

I will be picking up a 2021 64kWh Hyundai Kona this week.

Already planning stops for the Christmas drive to family. Going to be interesting.