Electric cars.

[JockyBrewer]

Charging is an issue if like myself you fall into the 30% of all UK houses have no off street parking, on street charging will become commonplace but i imagine it will be a while before we see it in small towns like ours.

We’re at 3% EV ownership in the UK, so there’s time before the 30% without off street parking become a sticking point.

The moment councils become friendly to install chargers on streets it’ll happen quite quickly in a lot of places. The power cables are under the streets, so it’s just the charging hardware that needs installing.

Also likely is that many charging stations will be installed in every retail car park, so wherever you go shopping you’ll get a top up of charge.

For example, back in the 90s out of town supermarkets realised they could get you to do all your shopping there by offering petrol at just above cost. EV Charging is even better for them as you have to stay with them for 20 minutes or more.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I've been reading up on battery tech. sodium ion, new zinc battery. the sodium is safer but doesn't last as long and had lower energy density. Generally the greater the energy density per square cm the bigger the failure risk. do you get more energy as you move up the periodic table? if so how is sodium less energy dense in a battery configuration? - other chemical interactions?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've been reading up on battery tech. sodium ion, new zinc battery. the sodium is safer but doesn't last as long and had lower energy density. Generally the greater the energy density per square cm the bigger the failure risk. do you get more energy as you move up the periodic table? if so how is sodium less energy dense in a battery configuration? - other chemical interactions?

Broadly thinking, all the group I elements like sodium, lithium, potassium etc can lose a single electron to form a stable ion, so you have one unit of charge. Lithium spreads that one unit of charge across a teeny-weeny ion so has a very high charge density, as you go down the periodic table you're spreading that one unit of charge over a bigger and bigger ion so the charge density is lower.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.

Sodium ion batteries are already in production cars, generally they suit cheaper cars with lower range - for commuting and the school run - whereas lithium ion is better when you want longer range and are prepared to pay for it.

 

[MashBag]

I don't have a solution, so on a more serious note i just feel ev's are a stop gap while they decide which is the best way to go it's a bit the diesel thing buy a diesel they said less polluting than a petrol yeah right, as to what we use if electric is not the answer your government will let you know when they find it

I don't have a solution either. I have a requirement. Ev's are not it (for me)

There are a few other things in the pipeline, and I think Ev's are first out the trap. But we will see a blend.

The cleft stick, is the facts are irrelevant to the truth. Tax revenue, politics and lobbying etc will play a bigger part in the decision.

 

[MashBag]

The moment councils become friendly to install chargers on streets it’ll happen quite quickly in a lot of places. The power cables are under the streets, so it’s just the charging hardware that needs installing.

Righto...
Councils?
Old Power cables running a good load already.
"just" Installing. All over the country

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The moment councils become friendly to install chargers on streets it’ll happen quite quickly in a lot of places. The power cables are under the streets, so it’s just the charging hardware that needs installing.

Righto...
Councils?
Old Power cables running a good load already.
"just" Installing. All over the country

Watch the video from where i have started it below he says 15 chargers per street powered from a new grid connection or a single one powered from your home.

 

[MashBag]

Righto...
Councils?
Old Power cables running a good load already.
"just" Installing. All over the country

2 out of 3 ain't bad

 

[Chippy_Tea]

"just" Installing. All over the country

I would not be surprised if the number of current EV owners who can charge at home is very close to 100% so at the moment there isn't really a demand for their on street chargers as we get closer to the cut off point for ICE sales demand will grow as stated 30% of us dont have the option to charge from home and we will be the ones they target.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Righto...
Councils?
Old Power cables running a good load already.
"just" Installing. All over the country

First of all, assuming they’re not installing rapid chargers there really shouldn’t be a need for new power cables.

Private companies will do the install, because for them it’s a golden goose. They do the install, and then they’re just reselling electricity at a mark up. Easy money.

Councils will license the installs at a cost. For them it’s free money, at a time when they’re cash strapped. Smarter councils should run the whole thing themselves as a revenue stream.

 

[MashBag]

Councils. Well know to do things quickly.

Fast or slow charge they will need permission from the DNO many of which are struggling to supply heatpumps or provide network for generators.

No saying it won't happen, I just don't take marketing at face value.

 

[Bernie]

Broadly thinking, all the group I elements like sodium, lithium, potassium etc can lose a single electron to form a stable ion, so you have one unit of charge. Lithium spreads that one unit of charge across a teeny-weeny ion so has a very high charge density, as you go down the periodic table you're spreading that one unit of charge over a bigger and bigger ion so the charge density is lower.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.

Sodium ion batteries are already in production cars, generally they suit cheaper cars with lower range - for commuting and the school run - whereas lithium ion is better when you want longer range and are prepared to pay for it.

The chemistry of lithium is anomalous in several respects to other alkali metals and can be compared to magnesium in having a high charge radius ratio. This means it has a high hydration enthalpy.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Councils. Well know to do things quickly.

Fast or slow charge they will need permission from the DNO many of which are struggling to supply heatpumps or provide network for generators.

No saying it won't happen, I just don't take marketing at face value.

Given that the national grid only provides around 20% of the UK's overall energy requirements and road transport is 30% of the UK's energy consumption then the transition to EV's is shifting a huge amount of energy demand from direct petrol and over to the grid. Without significant expansion of the national grid generating and distribution capacity we have no chance in supporting the move from gas and diesel/petrol over to electric options. We're talking many many billions of pounds of infrastructure investment over the next few decades to achieve this before we can have the EV charging network that we need.

We can chuck up wind turbines and solar panels quickly enough at great environmental cost (I know because every field around me is being covered with solar panels turning green fields into black glass - black glass as far as the eye can see), but for every Gw of wind and solar we need we need to match it with a GW of gas to generate the demanded energy requirements on days when its not windy or sunny. When people talk about cost of renewables they often ignore the cost of the back up needed.

 

[tigertim]

Given that the national grid only provides around 20% of the UK's overall energy requirements and road transport is 30% of the UK's energy consumption then the transition to EV's is shifting a huge amount of energy demand from direct petrol and over to the grid.

It's worth mentioning that this is part of the drive behind offering cheaper energy at night and the reason why domestic EVSE ("chargers") are supplied configured to prefer only off-peak energy; in terms of demand on the grid, the UK tends to use around 45GW through the day and around 30GW overnight so the demand on the grid is ~30% less when off peak. This would go a long way to covering the energy consumption of the UK's road transport.

It's not like the National Grid hasn't gone round this loop before which is the whole reason storage heaters and Economy 7 tariffs exist. Almost daily I see a comment along the lines of "I bet nobody's thought about what would happen to the national grid if everybody were to buy an EV; it'd melt!" and yet nobody said the same about storage heaters. Maybe because electricity was mostly generated by fossil fuels back then, so the pro-fossil-fuel lobby groups weren't injecting as much rubbish into the media because they had less to lose.

There will be changes and improvements required to the grid, for sure, but nothing unachievable. The National Grid has been considering and planning for this for decades - smoothing demand is good for them.

If only the privatised water companies had put anywhere near the same amount of investment into their infrastructure.

 

[tigertim]

they will need permission from the DNO many of which are struggling to supply heatpumps

I have an ASHP (air-to-air) in my home office set to 21C. It was consuming about 800w when it started up this morning and after 15 minutes ramped down to 200w and between 200w and idle (0w) is where it's been ever since. Definitely better than a 2000w fan heater. I didn't tell the DNO but I don't think they'll be too upset

 

[JockyBrewer]

The National Grid says on its website that there’s enough capacity for EVs.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions
But I agree on the renewables issue, base load is important. I’m very pro nuclear, but the problem is that western countries seem to find it very expensive to build. South Korea can deliver nuclear plants at a third of the cost we can in the UK.

 

[tigertim]

That's a great blog; from the horse's mouth, no less.

Takeway points of significance relevant to this conversation being :

Do the electricity grid's wires have enough capacity for charging EVs?​

The simple answer is yes. The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

And this one, which was news to me :

It’s also important to bear in mind that a significant amount of electricity is used to refine oil for petrol and diesel. Fully Charged’s video Volts for Oil estimates that refining 1 gallon of petrol would use around 4.5kWh of electricity – so, as we start to use less petrol or diesel cars, some of that electricity capacity could become available.

ETA: That's insane! So if you take those figures at face value. my Mini Cooper S Clubman with its 8.8 imp gallon fuel tank, uses ~40kWh of electricity for every full tank. That's more than a fully charged battery in a Hyundai Ioniq 38kWh, which already has over half the range of the Mini. I had no idea there was that much electricity wasted in refining fuel - I guess I'd never really stopped to think about it.

 

[hoppyscotty]

The National Grid says on its website that there’s enough capacity for EVs.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions
But I agree on the renewables issue, base load is important. I’m very pro nuclear, but the problem is that western countries seem to find it very expensive to build. South Korea can deliver nuclear plants at a third of the cost we can in the UK.

So there is currently 50% over capacity on the national grid right now??? I think not. Think there is some propoghanda going on. The Germans thought they had enough capacity in their network when they closed down their nukes and it turned out they didn't and the had to burn more coal and had to go cap in hand to Putin and are still paying him billions every day for gas.

I get the point about smoothing demand, but that is only an issue due to renewables because they don't produce on demand so we're reversing our entire model....and at great cost which is going to hit us all in our pockets over the coming decades...

 

[hoppyscotty]

1 gallon of petrol takes 4.5kw of energy to refine? Doesn't quite pass the BS test. Makes you wonder how energy has been so cheap for so long despite massive taxation and massive profits taken by the energy company...I wonder why it is now we have more 'cheap' renewable energy than we've ever had that energy prices are so high? I would have expected energy prices to fall if renewables were so much cheaper? Again so much propaganda going on on both sides of this argument that it's hard to know what the truth is.

 

[tigertim]

I guess it will always come down to who one wants to believe, really. If the national Grid tells us there is enough capacity on their network and we don't believe them (even though there has evidentially been enough capacity in the past for a far greater load), would we believe Shell if they told us that there definitely wasn't enough capacity on the National Grid?

People seem to feel much happier believing that they're "awakened" because they don't believe anything they're being told by anybody, unless it happens to fit their narrative.

 

[tigertim]

Should I feel stupid because I read what the National Grid says about their own network and believed it? What would they have to gain by lying? Surely if they admitted their network, for some mysterious reason, can't handle any more than 50% of the load it could handle 20 years ago, they'd get more investment?