Electric cars.

[Benfleet Brewery]

It is the essence of the argument as to why public transport is a better solution for urban environments; fewer vehicles on the road = less pollution. The problem today is that public transport is more expensive and less convenient for people than jumping in their cars.

Yep, and the road and other infrastructure changes introduced to support the move away from cars (bus lanes, cycle lanes etc) have only led to even more private car congestion, longer sitting in slow or stationery traffic and so subsequently more pollution.

 

[Bernie]

Yep, and the road and other infrastructure changes introduced to support the move away from cars (bus lanes, cycle lanes etc) have only led to even more private car congestion, longer sitting in slow or stationery traffic and so subsequently more pollution.

So, stop using cars if it's not so convenient.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

There are going to be a lot of unhappy EV owners if this goes through -


Taxes on electric car and van owners are one of the plans being considered by the Chancellor to be part of his Autumn Statement, according to reports over the weekend.

The move could bring in car tax, as vehicle excise duty is commonly known, for pure electric vehicles, which are currently exempt.

Jeremy Hunt is said to be considering how and when to introduce taxation for the greenest models on the road to plug the £35billion revenue black hole that will be created when more drivers switch to electric cars by the end of the decade.

With the 2030 deadline for the sale of new petrol and diesel cars very much on the horizon and owners of battery cars currently avoiding both fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, road taxation bills for EV drivers could be introduced within three years, according to The Telegraph.

A Whitehall source told the newspaper than electric vehicles would be subject to taxation 'at some point', though the Treasury is still trying to understand 'when that should be'.

With around one in six new cars bought in the UK this year being fully electric models and the ban on sales of traditional combustion-engine motors due at the end of the decade, billions of pounds in annual revenue generated from driver will rapidly diminish.

Because they run solely on electricity, battery car owners only pay VAT when charging their vehicles at home (5 per cent VAT) and using public devices (20 per cent VAT).

And with road taxation currently based on a car's exhaust emissions, zero tailpipe-emission electric cars are currently exempt from annual charges.

While VED is considered one of the existing benefits of switching to less polluting cars, ministers are mindful that this will soon become a revenue issue when battery vehicles take an even larger share of the market in the coming years.

One of the options The Telegraph claims is being considered by the new Chancellor to help plug the projected hole in public finances is for EV drivers to begin paying VED from the 2025/26 financial year.

This could even be announced in his Autumn Statement, which is due to be outlined in the Commons on 17 November.

The Whitehall source told the paper that 'everyone knows that electric vehicles will have to be subject to road tax at some point' but the Treasury faces the difficult decision of when to implement it and how without 'disincentivising uptake' of cleaner vehicles in the short-term while trying to meet strict air pollution reduction targets.

Earlier this year, the Commons transport committee released a report urging the Government to start an 'up-front conversation' with drivers about new ways they could be taxed as £35billion in annual revenue will be lost under current tax rules.

Fuel duty nets an estimated £28billion a year, while VED brings in around £7billion annually.

The Government has previously guaranteed that electric vehicles will remain VED exempt until at least 2025, though it is looking increasingly likely that the Treasury will inflict some form of levy on these cars and vans from the middle of the decade with the outlawing on sales of new petrol and diesel cars just five years down the line.

The transport committee recommended in February that electric vehicle owners should pay a 'road pricing' scheme.

This would charge drivers per trip, based on the distance travelled, duration of the journey and vehicle type.

It had also put forward the same scheme in April a year earlier, saying it was 'one of the best fiscal changes' to make.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is believed to be a big supporter of road pricing, having been 'very interested' in its introduction as a long-term alternative to VED during his tenure as Chancellor.

The committee's February report also urges ministers to set up an arms-length body to recommend a new regime by the end of this year.

At the time it was published, a government spokesman said it was committed to keeping the transition to electric cars 'affordable for consumers'.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers confirmed recently that the one millionth plug-in electric car - including both fully-electric and plug-in hybrid models - had been sold in Britain in September.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...7/Electric-car-owners-face-taxation-2025.html

​

 

[Stu's Brews]

There are going to be a lot of unhappy EV owners if this goes through -


Taxes on electric car and van owners are one of the plans being considered by the Chancellor to be part of his Autumn Statement, according to reports over the weekend.

The move could bring in car tax, as vehicle excise duty is commonly known, for pure electric vehicles, which are currently exempt.

Jeremy Hunt is said to be considering how and when to introduce taxation for the greenest models on the road to plug the £35billion revenue black hole that will be created when more drivers switch to electric cars by the end of the decade.

With the 2030 deadline for the sale of new petrol and diesel cars very much on the horizon and owners of battery cars currently avoiding both fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, road taxation bills for EV drivers could be introduced within three years, according to The Telegraph.

A Whitehall source told the newspaper than electric vehicles would be subject to taxation 'at some point', though the Treasury is still trying to understand 'when that should be'.

With around one in six new cars bought in the UK this year being fully electric models and the ban on sales of traditional combustion-engine motors due at the end of the decade, billions of pounds in annual revenue generated from driver will rapidly diminish.

Because they run solely on electricity, battery car owners only pay VAT when charging their vehicles at home (5 per cent VAT) and using public devices (20 per cent VAT).

And with road taxation currently based on a car's exhaust emissions, zero tailpipe-emission electric cars are currently exempt from annual charges.

While VED is considered one of the existing benefits of switching to less polluting cars, ministers are mindful that this will soon become a revenue issue when battery vehicles take an even larger share of the market in the coming years.

One of the options The Telegraph claims is being considered by the new Chancellor to help plug the projected hole in public finances is for EV drivers to begin paying VED from the 2025/26 financial year.

This could even be announced in his Autumn Statement, which is due to be outlined in the Commons on 17 November.

The Whitehall source told the paper that 'everyone knows that electric vehicles will have to be subject to road tax at some point' but the Treasury faces the difficult decision of when to implement it and how without 'disincentivising uptake' of cleaner vehicles in the short-term while trying to meet strict air pollution reduction targets.

Earlier this year, the Commons transport committee released a report urging the Government to start an 'up-front conversation' with drivers about new ways they could be taxed as £35billion in annual revenue will be lost under current tax rules.

Fuel duty nets an estimated £28billion a year, while VED brings in around £7billion annually.

The Government has previously guaranteed that electric vehicles will remain VED exempt until at least 2025, though it is looking increasingly likely that the Treasury will inflict some form of levy on these cars and vans from the middle of the decade with the outlawing on sales of new petrol and diesel cars just five years down the line.

The transport committee recommended in February that electric vehicle owners should pay a 'road pricing' scheme.

This would charge drivers per trip, based on the distance travelled, duration of the journey and vehicle type.

It had also put forward the same scheme in April a year earlier, saying it was 'one of the best fiscal changes' to make.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is believed to be a big supporter of road pricing, having been 'very interested' in its introduction as a long-term alternative to VED during his tenure as Chancellor.

The committee's February report also urges ministers to set up an arms-length body to recommend a new regime by the end of this year.

At the time it was published, a government spokesman said it was committed to keeping the transition to electric cars 'affordable for consumers'.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers confirmed recently that the one millionth plug-in electric car - including both fully-electric and plug-in hybrid models - had been sold in Britain in September.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...7/Electric-car-owners-face-taxation-2025.html

​

Unfortunately this was only ever a matter of time. As soon as tax revenues from emissions based vehicle exise duty and fuel sales began to dry up they were going to have to come up with an alternative to fill the gap.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Unfortunately this was only ever a matter of time. As soon as tax revenues from emissions-based vehicle exise duty and fuel sales began to dry up they were going to have to come up with an alternative to fill the gap.

This is the reason i never bit the bullet and went for an LPG conversion back in the day when it was popular everyone said if we all moved over to it they would tax it like normal fuel.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Unfortunately this was only ever a matter of time. As soon as tax revenues from emissions based vehicle exise duty and fuel sales began to dry up they were going to have to come up with an alternative to fill the gap.

agreed, but the technology for road pricing will require even more infrastructure. so I think that's not going to end successfully.

would we be forced to fit a data logger on our cars or we fail the mot? - what about foreign cars visiting? The governments best bet would be getting your smartmeter to grass you up that you are charging over a certain rate at home and taxing you extra on that.

 

[dad_of_jon]

This is the reason i never bit the bullet and went for an LPG conversion back in the day when it was popular everyone said if we all moved over to it they would tax it like normal fuel.

I thought about this, but you also can't take your car on the chunnel if it can run on lpg. DACIA do lpg versions, if you buy one you get a slightly more powerful engine output, 100ps vs 90ps. I don't know if that is on lpg though.

 

[Leon103]

Surely there will be money saved by not running on fossil fuel

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I thought about this, but you also can't take your car on the chunnel if it can run on lpg. DACIA do lpg versions, if you buy one you get a slightly more powerful engine output, 100ps vs 90ps. I don't know if that is on lpg though.

I didn't know they did a LPG car.

 

[Robin54]

thats been around for years - you just need to put the spare tyre on the back seat - old news

 

[Chippy_Tea]

thats been around for years - you just need to put the spare tyre on the back seat - old news

I know lpg has been around for years but didn't know Dacia made a range of cars with it fitted as standard.

 

[Polcho]

I still think it’s a case of the cart before the horse.

We have about 7 years before the sale of combustion engine cars is banned in the UK. Between now and then sales will build, yet we are having blackout drills, call it what you like, sounds like someone is concerned.

That little green stripe on the numberplate may well become unpopular.

 

[Stu's Brews]

I still think it’s a case of the cart before the horse.

We have about 7 years before the sale of combustion engine cars is banned in the UK. Between now and then sales will build, yet we are having blackout drills, call it what you like, sounds like someone is concerned.

That little green stripe on the numberplate may well become unpopular.

Clearly there is work to do to ensure there is sufficient capacity with the grid.

However, I fear electric vehicles are being singled out as the enemy here. There are a vast amount of other uses for electricity that could be either reduced or eliminated (and of course using cars less would also help).

The current discussion around blackout drills is more related to the lack of supply due to the war in Ukraine than our actual grid capacity.

 

[Polcho]

I get want you’re saying, and I welcome less pollution etc. But at the same time, I have capacity for much more beer in the shed, but with nothing in the pipeline, it going to stay just that, empty capacity.

The reason public transport is not used, and I see empty busses churning out black smoke all the time here, is that they are uncomfortable, irregular, uninviting places to be.

Busses will never be what they were because despite the UK being sooooo poor, most people have cars and don’t want to wait for a bus to go to the offi.

Anyway, all I’m saying is when the lights go out over the next few years, just remember where you heard it first

 

[pilgrimhudd]

I know it isn't the point of the thread but talking of busses, the reason nobody goes on them is because unless you live in a city they are unreliable, infrequent and expensive for what they are. If I wanted to get a bus to Redruth it's one bus every two hours and the last bus back is at 6pm. When I lived in London on the other hand, i'd get a bus everywhere and the busses in London are hybrids I believe...but I could be wrong?

 

[Brew_DD2]

I know it isn't the point of the thread but talking of busses, the reason nobody goes on them is because unless you live in a city they are unreliable, infrequent and expensive for what they are. If I wanted to get a bus to Redruth it's one bus every two hours and the last bus back is at 6pm. When I lived in London on the other hand, i'd get a bus everywhere and the busses in London are hybrids I believe...but I could be wrong?

A lot of the buses here are electric or hybrid. As soon as you head out of the city, the provision is patchy at best.

 

[Stu's Brews]

The reason public transport is not used, and I see empty busses churning out black smoke all the time here, is that they are uncomfortable, irregular, uninviting places to be.
Busses will never be what they were because despite the UK being sooooo poor, most people have cars and don’t want to wait for a bus to go to the offi.
Anyway, all I’m saying is when the lights go out over the next few years, just remember where you heard it first

Unfortunately that sort of attitude really doesn't help (and it's a widespread attitude so I'm not picking on you specifically). It's no good saying there is a problem but then not being willing to be part of the solution because it's a bit inconvenient.

I completely agree that bus services aren't good enough (and in some cases are completely unviable) but if people don't use them then there is less justification for investing in improvements. Also don't forget there are other options beside using a car such as walking and cycling.

I read a really interesting book recently ('Everything is F*cked' by Mark Manson) that is very applicable to this discussion. One of the big points it makes is that as humans we have an in-built habit of avoiding pain, that we essentially develop through childhood (e.g. you burn your hand on something hot and learn to avoiding doing it again).

Applied to this discussion, people avoid the pain of inconvenience by using their car instead of an alternative that may be slower, less comfortable, etc.

If we want to see genuine change implemented then we have to be prepared to accept a little pain along the way.

 

[Polcho]

It’s not an attitude, so much as a couple of facts.

Personally, I’m not into pain, all I’m saying is, I just don’t don’t think encouraging the use of more electricity, when we clearly don’t have enough, is an interesting concept.

 

[Stu's Brews]

It’s not an attitude, so much as a couple of facts.

Personally, I’m not into pain, all I’m saying is, I just don’t don’t think encouraging the use of more electricity, when we clearly don’t have enough, is an interesting concept.

I think you've missed my point.

We don't have much choice in terms of switching to electric vehicles as we can't keep burning fossil fuels and there are currently no other viable alternatives (except reducing car usage).

Your concerns about the impact on the grid are completely valid, but based on current data not actually true.

However, if there was insufficient electricity then what I'm proposing is that if everyone used cars less it would help significantly. But to do that we have to accept some of the pain/inconvenience currently posed by public transport.

 

[Alastair70]

It’s not an attitude, so much as a couple of facts.
Personally, I’m not into pain, all I’m saying is, I just don’t don’t think encouraging the use of more electricity, when we clearly don’t have enough, is an interesting concept.

I’m really struggling to follow your argument but I want too. Can you point us all in the direction of some evidence that the electricity supply is going to run out.