Electric cars.

[Stu's Brews]

This thread is hilarious, in didn't think that anything could beat a 30 minute boil thread but this one has certainly got a section of people riled the most surprising thing for me is that governments can automatically switch your car off purely because it's an EV Even modern ICE cars are heavily computerized so if they really did want to restrict movements these could also theoretically be disabled ... If such a function was to be developed by the manufacturer at their own cost and then this was exposed to the wicked government

I always boil my EVs for 30 minutes...

 

[Stan's Brew]

Without going into exhaustive detail as this has gone way off topic now.

Access to code is tightly controlled in any organisation that produces software, only those needed to work on the code itself will have access. Engineers are vetted as part of their interview process, there are also code review processes and a whole host of testing and validation before any code enters the public domain.

For the government to have the ability to control all vehicles on the road, there would need to be a clearly defined interface protocol that they could use. That isn't the work of a couple of rogue engineers to setup. It would have to be a coordinated effort across all OEMs and all global governments. That is not happening.

As you have pointed out, the software is IPR, it is proprietary and not open source, so there is no way that the code can be independently verified (independent from the industry that is). Each OEM will have their own proprietary software and own IPR. What about 3rd party software, I'm guessing the majority of OEMs software is 3rd party and not developed in-house?

How much transparency is in the supply chain for the hardware? All the way back to China?

At least Google made Android OSS and de-googled phones can be made on that basis, as for Apple that is proprietary and not subject to independent scrutiny and presents the biggest privacy threat in the mobile phone world.

 

[Stu's Brews]

What about 3rd party software, I'm guessing the majority of OEMs software is 3rd party and not developed in-house?

It entirely depends on the system. In some cases it will always be done by the OEM (e.g. the overall vehicle control), in others it is almost always purchased from a 3rd party (e.g. the ABS).

How much transparency is in the supply chain for the hardware? All the way back to China?

A lot. We can trace parts back a long way, so even if we buy a system from a Tier 1 supplier we can find out where their component parts are sourced from. It's needed to help understand quality issues as much as anything else.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Without going into exhaustive detail as this has gone way off topic now.

Access to code is tightly controlled in any organisation that produces software, only those needed to work on the code itself will have access. Engineers are vetted as part of their interview process, there are also code review processes and a whole host of testing and validation before any code enters the public domain.

For the government to have the ability to control all vehicles on the road, there would need to be a clearly defined interface protocol that they could use. That isn't the work of a couple of rogue engineers to setup. It would have to be a coordinated effort across all OEMs and all global governments. That is not happening.

So despite all the controls placed on vehicles, all the standards, all the certificates, all the vetting and sign-off by the top bods, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Skoda and an array of others secretly implemented cheats to get around emission targets.

Zero trust.

 

[Stu's Brews]

So despite all the controls placed on vehicles, all the standards, all the certificates, all the vetting and sign-off by the top bods, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Skoda and an array of others secretly implemented cheats to get around emission targets.

Zero trust.

That was the VW group (which includes Skoda) but explicitly affected diesel vehicles. Nothing to do with EVs, if anything it was a desperate attempt to retain relevancy for diesel engines. Quite rightly those responsible were punished and the loopholes were tightened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

 

[tigertim]

Apologies if this has already been answered above, but what is the government's benefit from abitrarily restricting our movement? Wouldn't doing so just tank the economy even further?

 

[Stan's Brew]

That was the VW group (which includes Skoda) but explicitly affected diesel vehicles. Nothing to do with EVs, if anything it was a desperate attempt to retain relevancy for diesel engines. Quite rightly those responsible were punished and the loopholes were tightened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

It doesn't bode well for trusting proprietary software and hardware in EVs - if the software was made open source then it could be verified publicly and trust levels would be higher. The general public won't have a clue about any of this (just as they have no clue about the spy in their pocket).

As trust in governments is at an all time low and all they want to do is to seek more and more control over our lives under the guise of climate change or emergency bio-security rules or even War, then more control will be implemented in various ways as has already been happening. I think unless there is a large push back on government control then we will be powerless to stop it and a push back requires a wake-up in the general population, it just ain't gonna happen, so i am a pessimist on that. However, history teaches us that all it takes is just one spark for change to happen.

I've done this subject to death now, hope I've been civil enough

 

[Bernie]

Apologies if this has already been answered above, but what is the government's benefit from abitrarily restricting our movement? Wouldn't doing so just tank the economy even further?

Nearly all those restrictions are enacted by metropolitan boroughs or local authorities. How is it working for them?

 

[Stu's Brews]

if the software was made open source then it could be verified publicly and trust levels would be higher.

The software will almost certainly never be open-source as it contains too much intellectual property that could be of benefit to competitors.

However, in terms of independent verification, all vehicles have to be certified by an independent organisation before they can be sold in any market. In the UK, that is handled by the VCA who are already involved in refining the regulations for cyber-security and software: Vehicle Certification Agency

 

[Brew_DD2]

Despite the long history of governments lying to us about just about any subject they present to us, people will blindly believe them. You are indeed in the majority, as it always has been throughout history.

You're the one obsessing over governance. I can assure that I'm educated enough to discern propaganda from science. You don not have unique insight because you've done some googling and read tinfoil hat theories.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I don't mean control by an unauthorised party or hacking of EV, charging infrastructure, plugs and sockets - although this is also a concerning and growing threat.

Hackers and malicious actors aren't that bothered about 'saving the planet', they would rather harvest your credit card details from the charging point. Having said that, there are ideologically driven eco-terrorists who would rather you didn't breathe to save the planet, so there is that new emerging threat.

The main threat is from your government, having the ability to switch off your transport options at their will. Just as they have the ability to manipulate the information on the internet now, monitor, track and control the data you see on your mobile phone, track your location, listen into your Alexa devices and mobile phone and cameras. They have the ability to control EVs, charging points, smart meters, all from the comfort of a heated and air-conditioned central office located anywhere on the planet.

Given what is happening in Oxford and Canterbury with their 15 minute cities, one of the next steps will be to restrict the mileage you can drive in your EV, then either pay additional fees to drive further or once you have reached your mileage limit, the vehicle is switched off until the meter clicks around to the point when you are allowed to drive again - the possibilities for control are endless.

Jesus wept

 

[Brew_DD2]

This thread is hilarious, in didn't think that anything could beat a 30 minute boil thread but this one has certainly got a section of people riled the most surprising thing for me is that governments can automatically switch your car off purely because it's an EV Even modern ICE cars are heavily computerized so if they really did want to restrict movements these could also theoretically be disabled ... If such a function was to be developed by the manufacturer at their own cost and then this was exposed to the wicked government

The amount of drivel I've read here has reduced my IQ significantly. Of that, I am sure.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I think there are far too many people out there who incorrectly equate distrust of everything, to critical thinking.

 

[dad_of_jon]

The latest generation of EVs can do 400 miles on a single charge. That doesn't really fit my definition of local.

How much do those cost compared with a shorter range ev?

 

[dad_of_jon]

Despite the long history of governments lying to us about just about any subject they present to us, people will blindly believe them. You are indeed in the majority, as it always has been throughout history.

I do remember the promise of electricity so cheap it wouldn't be worth billing for it. This was at the start of our nuclear power generation in the '50s. - Years later main reason: to produce nuclear material for bombs.

There's a lot of instances where us plebs are kept in the dark. Either to avoid policital embarrasement/incompetance, failure to govern soundly, or indeed to keep us safe. I'm not sure why people believe this age we live in , is immune to greed, incompetence and misdirection. One things for sure there are too many of us with different views to keep us all happy all the time.

Freedom of movement is slowly being strangled, you may not believe it but there are lots a little bits that when added together aim for a reduction in the distances we travel.

I doubt we'll have free electricity or even cheap electricity when fusion is solved, but at least it would mean a reduction in radioactive waste.

 

[gavp1979]

If you have access to the code, then how many other developers have access to the code?

Have all developers been vetted to determine their suitability to program the code and to do so with trust and integrity, without implementing back doors? Who is to say that some of these developers have not been placed into industry by governments in order to work the code to their advantage?

None of these questions can be answered of course, but we should be living in a zero-trust environment, I would not trust anything to do with computer systems in vehicles given what we know has been happening with mobile phones and the internet since they were invented.

Very unlikely that a developer would be able to 'just add a back door' as standard process in software development would be that all changes are done in a feature branch with a pull request raised when the feature had been completed, only after the pull request has been peer reviewed would the new code be merged into the master branch, this would then be tested by the QA department before being released to production

 

[Brew_DD2]

How much do those cost compared with a shorter range ev?

Well some of the cheapest EVs on the market (MG4, 5 and ZS) are capable of doing north of 300 miles. The ranges are getting longer and the prices are coming down.

 

[Bernie]

I am not surprised to see Toyota leading the hybrid section i am definitely getting one next, the drop in diesel sales is quite a shock i was expecting it to be low but not that low.

Whatever ones opinions on the greenness of electric vehicles I'm impressed by the sheer comfort that silence and smoothness of ride that a hybrid makes, following my experiences in a Toyota Hybrid.

 

[tigertim]

Freedom of movement is slowly being strangled, you may not believe it but there are lots a little bits that when added together aim for a reduction in the distances we travel.

I'm afraid I just don't see this at all. You can strap on a pair of shoes or grab your bicycle and go pretty much anywhere you want at any time for free and, as long as you leave your phone (and your "COVID *** geolocation chip") at home, nobody will be any the wiser.

If you're seeing the increase in cost of polluting or energy-hungry methods of transport as a restriction to our freedom of movement, it's just because we've started to realise the real cost of the largely "free lunch" of hydrocarbons we've been consuming over the last century or so. No mystery, really. Why would "they" care how far we travel?

 

[Stan's Brew]

Very unlikely that a developer would be able to 'just add a back door' as standard process in software development would be that all changes are done in a feature branch with a pull request raised when the feature had been completed, only after the pull request has been peer reviewed would the new code be merged into the master branch, this would then be tested by the QA department before being released to production

As unlikely as Israeli state sanctioned spyware company Pegasus covertly infiltrating hundreds if not thousands of mobile phones of politicians, high ranking officials and all sorts of other people across the globe? Pegasus was sold to a wide range of governments and went undetected for quite some time.

It remains a fact that anything with a network connection, especially something connected to the internet can be exploited regardless of the cybersecurity guards put in place - for high value targets it is state level actors that do this, law enforcement and intelligence agencies will always have a way to gather intelligence on their targets regardless of security, EVs are just another tool to be exploited.

At pleb level it is more about tracking usage, location and gathering data for advertising and various other metrics, unless you are an activist/criminal/politician/someone to be manipulated of some kind it is unlikely that ordinary plebs will be targeted by the state.

But we should be concerned about the capabilities that big tech and governments have to monitor and control us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)