Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)

[strange-steve]

Confusing myself over water treatment again.
Does anyone know - if I add enough AMS to reduce alkalinity below zero, does it continue to increase the sulphate & chloride in the same way once i'm into the negatives numbers?

Is it even possible, in practise, to have a negative alkalinity?

I went down to -5 alkalinity yesterday and used 2% acidulated malt, but the mash pH was still too high

Yes, the sulphate and chloride will continue to increase at the same rate, however you can't have negative alkalinity. With no bicarbonate left for the acid to react with, you should see a sharp drop in pH pretty quickly but there may also be some unwanted affects, especially if the water is in contact with metals. Although I'm not entirely sure about that, maybe an actual chemist could help there!

So you reduced the alkalinity to 0 with AMS, plus added 2% acid malt and the mash pH was still high? What was the pH, and the grain bill?

 

[dan125]

Yes, the sulphate and chloride will continue to increase at the same rate, however you can't have negative alkalinity. With no bicarbonate left for the acid to react with, you should see a sharp drop in pH pretty quickly but there may also be some unwanted affects, especially if the water is in contact with metals. Although I'm not entirely sure about that, maybe an actual chemist could help there!

So you reduced the alkalinity to 0 with AMS, plus added 2% acid malt and the mash pH was still high? What was the pH, and the grain bill?

Thanks Steve

Yep I used 25L ashbeck with 16L tap water, treated with 19ml AMS, 6g Gypsum & 3g Calcium chloride (salts added to grains) for:

Alk = -5 (theoretically)
Chloride = 89ppm
Sulphate = 149ppm
Calcium = 94ppm

Grain bill was very pale:

5600g MO extra pale
300g caramalt
120g acidulated

After adding the AMS the liquor pH was 3.7, and the mash pH came in at 5.6 @ 15mins in.

 

[Thumper]

Ok, convert the HCO3 to CaCO3 by dividing by 1.22 which gives you an alkalinity of 219 ppm as CaCO3. For a hoppy pale ale, get the alkalinity below 35 ppm and add a little gypsum, maybe 0.2g/L.

Wow, thanks Steve! I wasn't expecting to have the maths done for me.

Have you ever used phosphoric acid to reduce alkilinty? I came across it on a homebrew website. Apparently the products which the reaction produces act as yeast nutrients, which I suppose makes sense.

 

[strange-steve]

Thanks Steve

Yep I used 25L ashbeck with 16L tap water, treated with 19ml AMS, 6g Gypsum & 3g Calcium chloride (salts added to grains) for:

Alk = -5 (theoretically)
Chloride = 89ppm
Sulphate = 149ppm
Calcium = 94ppm

Grain bill was very pale:

5600g MO extra pale
300g caramalt
120g acidulated

After adding the AMS the liquor pH was 3.7, and the mash pH came in at 5.6 @ 15mins in.

That's an interesting one. The pH is a little higher than I'd expect, but within the accepted range, so I wouldn't be overly concerned. Are you sure of the calibration of your meter?

If you wanted to drop the pH a little more for next time without adding more acids, then maybe try increasing the calcium to somewhere closer to 150ppm.

 

[strange-steve]

Wow, thanks Steve! I wasn't expecting to have the maths done for me.

Have you ever used phosphoric acid to reduce alkilinty? I came across it on a homebrew website. Apparently the products which the reaction produces act as yeast nutrients, which I suppose makes sense.

I've never used it but it seems to be quite popular with US brewers, however it is known to cause precipitation of calcium from the mash. Whether or not that is an issue though depends on who you ask, like many factors of water treatment there is a lot of disagreement between the experts.

 

[dan125]

That's an interesting one. The pH is a little higher than I'd expect, but within the accepted range, so I wouldn't be overly concerned. Are you sure of the calibration of your meter?

If you wanted to drop the pH a little more for next time without adding more acids, then maybe try increasing the calcium to somewhere closer to 150ppm.

Thanks Steve - I did wonder about the calibration & will have to buy some pH solution to check it against, but did calibrate it a couple of weeks ago.
I'll try increasing the calcium a bit on the next very pale beer.

 

[Thumper]

I've never used it but it seems to be quite popular with US brewers, however it is known to cause precipitation of calcium from the mash. Whether or not that is an issue though depends on who you ask, like many factors of water treatment there is a lot of disagreement between the experts.

Thanks Steve. It seems to me that you want the calcium to remain in solution, so my instinct would be to avoid that. I'll probably try and source some CRS, as that seems to present the least potential issues.

 

[Sozzled]

Hi All

Just about to dip my toes into water treatment,

I have a small RO system that I intend to use to get about 30 litres of water.

I'm going to brew a Mexican Cerveza and have put a profile for American Lager into Bru'n Water.

I'm having an absolute mare trying to get the treated water to make any sense though

I have no idea where I'm going wrong, or if i'm brutally honest, what I'm doing

Any advise would be very much appreciated.

 

[strange-steve]

@Chippy_Tea
Hi, I have rewritten the OP of this thread with some corrections, clarifications and to address some common questions, is it possible you could replace it? What would be the easiest way to do it?

 

[strange-steve]

@Sozzled
Do you know what's in your tap water? The reason I ask is that using 100% RO water isn't really ideal because you're removing all the trace elements that are often beneficial. My tap water is rather low in minerals so I blend it 50:50 with RO and use that to build my water profile.

 

[Sozzled]

@Sozzled
Do you know what's in your tap water? The reason I ask is that using 100% RO water isn't really ideal because you're removing all the trace elements that are often beneficial. My tap water is rather low in minerals so I blend it 50:50 with RO and use that to build my water profile.

Thanks for the help Steve.

I only have what's available on the Yorkshire water site, which to be fair seems pretty comprehensive.

Do you think a 50/50 with some ashbeck might be more beneficial?

 

[strange-steve]

You could use half and half with Ashbeck, but since you have access to RO water it would be far better if you could make use of your tap water by blending it and adding whatever salts you need.

On Yorkshire Water does it tell you alkalinity and calcium content? If not then I recommend getting the Salifert test kits and continuing from there.

 

[private4587]

Hi Steve I have recently got myself a RO unit still to fit, are you saying it is better to use so much of your own tap water say 50/50 instead of all RO water. My water is from Northumbria water and its water report is next to useless. I have the Saliferts test kits and regularly get Alkalinity of 42-48ppm and Calcium of 35-50ppm. If this is the case how would i enter the results into Brunwater when i start to use it when i have my RO unit set up. Sorry for so many questions. Also if using 50/50 water would i then have to continue adding camden tablets as i thought if using 100% RO water i could stop this practice?

 

[strange-steve]

Your water is very similar to mine and I blend 50/50 with RO. For entering values into a calculator you can assume RO has nothing in it (technically not true, but with soft water like yours it'll be close enough), so about half the values of your tap water would be a decent guess. Something like 25 ppm alkalinity and 20 ppm calcium. Bru'n Water has an option for blending with RO or DI water, though it won't make a huge difference with such soft water.

I do add half a campden tablet out of habit, but tbh it's probably not necessary. Doesn't do any harm though.

 

[strange-steve]

Just to let people know, I have rewritten parts of the OP in order to clarify a few points, make some additions and to answer some common questions. Due to a character limit in the new software it is now split over two posts, but that should be fairly obvious anyway.

 

[svenito]

Re. wheat beers, I like a rich malt flavour in a hefeweizen, so I go for plenty of chloride and low sulphate.

How does this look for a wheat beer? So many different opinions on what the profile should be out there. I've gone with a malty approach for this, low sulphate and higher cl

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=3JD4DBT

 

[private4587]

Hi Steve hope you can help me out here, I am trying to use the Bru'n water spreadsheet using RO water as my source water. You said earlier that you use 50/50 with your tap water. My question is that my water report is not very good and i am not sure which items are useful for the spreadsheet and which are not. Also do i divide what readings are useful by half? I have attached my report if that is of some help. Many thanks

 

[strange-steve]

How does this look for a wheat beer? So many different opinions on what the profile should be out there. I've gone with a malty approach for this, low sulphate and higher cl

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=3JD4DBT

Jeez that calculator looks complicated
Am I right in saying this is the profile you're targeting...

And this is your water profile after additions...

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve hope you can help me out here, I am trying to use the Bru'n water spreadsheet using RO water as my source water. You said earlier that you use 50/50 with your tap water. My question is that my water report is not very good and i am not sure which items are useful for the spreadsheet and which are not. Also do i divide what readings are useful by half? I have attached my report if that is of some help. Many thanks

Yeah your water report is as good as useless. Really, unless you know what's in your water you're flying blind. Either contact your water company to see if they can give you alkalinity and calcium figures, or better yet, get the Salifert kits and test for yourself. Judging by the other values in your report, it looks to be fairly low in minerals which is good for building your own profiles.

 

[svenito]

Jeez that calculator looks complicated
Am I right in saying this is the profile you're targeting...

And this is your water profile after additions...

Yes on both accounts. But you can ignore the target values. I used them only as a guide for my final results at the bottom.
There are no acid additions yet, as I plan to add that once I kno mash pH

I tried to keep the sulphate and chloride ratio towards a malty profile.