Beer Pressure difference

[APINTA]

Hi I wrote about my beer not clearing on here because I left my beer on the heat mat to long I have done what you guys have said on here.It is now at 16c maybe a bit higher can anybody tell me how will it take before it clears. My second Q is when I put a co2 capsule into the PB it went up to 6psi then quickly came down to just over 3psi I know there are no leaks in the PB because I checked it with air line and filled it with air before hand the pressure went up to 6psi and stayed like that for 48 hrs and it still read 6psi The only reason i can think of the pressure going down to 3ps and and staying there, Could this could be because of the volume of the PB with the beer in it as when I tested it with air line it was a empty PB and that why the pressure was higher in a empty PB as it had only air in it and nothing else in the PB.In other words the gas was equalising with the beer in the PB?

 

[Sandimas]

It sounds to me like you have a small leak in the lid seal.

Yes, you tested the PB but between then and now you have taken the water out and put beer in, presumably by opening up the lid and the re-sealing? The pressure should stay constant when you inject CO2 not drop.

Try some more CO2 but with the lid slightly tighter, and listen for any CO2 escaping. Sometimes the lid gasket deforms, especially with the smaller the 2" lids. In my expereince there is an art to getting the lid seal just-right: too tight or too loose and it will leak.

 

[APINTA]

But when I done the test with just air in the PB and put it under water for leak tests there was no tell tale air escape bubbles

 

[Drunkula]

darrellm is spot on - sometimes the cap o-ring distorts when you screw it too tight, it's infuriating before you know about it. Also suggest making up a washing up liquid solution and putting it in a spray bottle and sousing the barrel to look for little bubbles. Do the whole thing as sometimes you can get cracks in the barrel that you can't see, and not just on the seams. Hit it with co2 then go to town.

 

[terrym]

After you have injected a bulb to repressurise a PB the initial head pressure may well be higher than the equilibrium pressure, and the system out of pressure balance. So the CO2 is then slowly forced into the beer until a new equilibrium is reached. So in your case the initial pressure is 6psig which then drops to 3psig as a new equilibrium is reached. If this new gas pressure then remains stable and above 0psig you don't have a leak.
As far as clarity is concerned, when you asked the question in your previous thread (why open yet another thread to discuss your concerns) I suggested that you find a colder place than 16*C to help clearing. You don't appear to have done that.
For other folks looking in the earlier thread is here
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75297

 

[APINTA]

After you have injected a bulb to repressurise a PB the initial head pressure may well be higher than the equilibrium pressure, and the system out of pressure balance. So the CO2 is then slowly forced into the beer until a new equilibrium is reached. So in your case the initial pressure is 6psig which then drops to 3psig as a new equilibrium is reached. If this new gas pressure then remains stable and above 0psig you don't have a leak.
As far as clarity is concerned, when you asked the question in your previous thread (why open yet another thread to discuss your concerns) I suggested that you find a colder place than 16*C to help clearing. You don't appear to have done that.
For other folks looking in the earlier thread is here
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75297

All I was saying Terry was if I can not find place cooler than 16c how long would it take to clear as the only other place is the open Garden where at the moment we very strong winds storm force I apologise if I have upset you but at the moment there is nowhere else I can put the PB all that I was asking was if I can only leave at 16c roughly how long would take to clear. Once this storm has passed then I will leave it out in the garden to clear as the same with the wine as well but at the moment I am stuck not everybody has a garage or big shed to put it in :-?

 

[terrym]

All I was saying Terry was if I can not find place cooler than 16c how long would it take to clear as the only other place is the open Garden where at the moment we very strong winds storm force I apologise if I have upset you but at the moment there is nowhere else I can put the PB all that I was asking was if I can only leave at 16c roughly how long would take to clear. Once this storm has passed then I will leave it out in the garden to clear as the same with the wine as well but at the moment I am stuck not everybody has a garage or big shed to put it in :-?

Some yeasts drop very quickly after they're done and will then form a solid layer that's difficult to shift. Others take an age to drop and, even then, the slightest movement will resuspend the yeast cells. You may have yeast that tends to the latter. In the end time should clear your beer but apart from lowering the temperature to encourage the yeast to settle there is not a lot you can do other than wait. And in my view no-one can give a clear indication on how long it will take. It might be another couple of weeks or even longer. It might be less.You just have to be patient. And if you think it's ready to drink, in spite of it not being as clear as you would like, get yourself a pewter or pot mug, pour yourself a beer and enjoy the fruits of your labours but don't look too hard.

 

[Sandimas]

But when I done the test with just air in the PB and put it under water for leak tests there was no tell tale air escape bubbles

Yes, but my point was that since then you have unscrewed the lid and re-tightened it after putting beer in, you may have compressed the seal too much, you may have not tightened it enough after putting beer in, etc.

Every time you open the lid there is a risk it won't re-seal correctly.

 

[Jakeyboi]

All I was saying Terry was if I can not find place cooler than 16c how long would it take to clear as the only other place is the open Garden where at the moment we very strong winds storm force I apologise if I have upset you but at the moment there is nowhere else I can put the PB all that I was asking was if I can only leave at 16c roughly how long would take to clear. Once this storm has passed then I will leave it out in the garden to clear as the same with the wine as well but at the moment I am stuck not everybody has a garage or big shed to put it in :-?

8 weeks should do it

 

[OlsBean]

But when I done the test with just air in the PB and put it under water for leak tests there was no tell tale air escape bubbles

I did the exact same thing with my first ever PB Brew, I had no leaks at all. After I put the beer in, it was holding well at 8 PSI, next time I checked it, it was at 3 PSI, I made a Bubbly/Soapy solution from warm water and washing up liquid and put the mixture around and under the PB Cap and I could see a very small leak from there. I tightened the cap and it was fine after that, well until I moved the PB but that was another story.

 

[APINTA]

Thanks Guys for all advice will take from it :thumb:

 

[APINTA]

I did the exact same thing with my first ever PB Brew, I had no leaks at all. After I put the beer in, it was holding well at 8 PSI, next time I checked it, it was at 3 PSI, I made a Bubbly/Soapy solution from warm water and washing up liquid and put the mixture around and under the PB Cap and I could see a very small leak from there. I tightened the cap and it was fine after that, well until I moved the PB but that was another story.

what happened then when you moved it ? tighten the cap until I could do no more Brought one of those cap spanners and tightened it as much as I could on my own put in a other co2 in and it is staying at just over 6 psi and holding that pressure. What is confusing is some say do it hand tight some say do it hand tight and just had a quick turn but still others say get it as tight as you possible can Who is right I am so now total confused as these seals are not cheap also when you make a new brew you have to add a new sealet to the cap washer or Vaseline this cap lark is getting more confusing as you go along leave it hand tight?, just tighten it a litle bit with the spanner or o the whole hog tighten is as much by hand and then tighten it as much as you can:hmm:

 

[Duxuk]

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding what you've done here but I would expect the pressure to drop due to CO2 absorbing into the beer. If the beer temperature falls during storage then more CO2 will dissolve into the beer and so pressure will fall. If you had any leak then surely the pressure would fall to atmospheric?

 

[Fil]

a good wrap of PTFE tape overlapping the top edge of the lid thread can help, as can a smear of keg grease or vaseline (some have used KY jelly!!) on the lid oring can help make a seal on a 'dodgy ' PB.. in most cases a lid spanner is overkill imho and the torque used with one can kink/stretch the oring and break the seal if over applied.

Some PB lid threads have an uneven top face which gentle sanding down can sort, but may then require bleach sanitation due to scratches left by the procedure so consider that a last ditch approach.

 

[Sandimas]

What is confusing is some say do it hand tight some say do it hand tight and just had a quick turn but still others say get it as tight as you possible can Who is right I am so now total confused

Both are right - sadly using barrels and sealing them is a bit of an art. You'll get there once you've used them a few times.

I have 2 barrels. The first is a cheap Wilko barrel witha 2" lid, hand tight is sufficient to seal it, in fact if you tighten it more it distorts the seal and leaks. The second is a King Keg with a 4" lid, that one needs to be done up much tighter: in fact, like you, I have to use a keg spanner to seal it. After a few goes you'll work out what is best for the barrel you have.

 

[APINTA]

So What most of you are saying forget the cap spanner just tighten it as much as you can by hand and if the pressure still goes down add some of this PTFE to the edge of the PB where the thread starts is that correct ? or do I put it on the edge of the cap thread?. The pressure has now gone down to 5 PSI from 6PSI is this due to the co2 it being absorbed by the beer. I must admit I forgot to prime the beer with sugar so I did it with co2 instead. So every time I pour a pint the pressure will go down?Also can I ask you experts on here who use PB how tight you do your caps? Like I said when I done my lid hand tight before it started at 6PSI shortly afterwards it went down to 3PSi then When I pulled a beer it went down to 2PSI so I then tighten the lid with a lid spanner. Put in other Co2 bulb it went up to 6 PSI then slowly down to 5PSI which Duxuk says this is because the beer is asboring the gas is that correct ?

 

[terrym]

So What most of you are saying forget the cap spanner just tighten it as much as you can by hand and if the pressure still goes down add some of this PTFE to the edge of the PB where the thread starts is that correct ? or do I put it on the edge of the cap thread?. The pressure has now gone down to 5 PSI from 6PSI is this due to the co2 it being absorbed by the beer. I must admit I forgot to prime the beer with sugar so I did it with co2 instead. So every time I pour a pint the pressure will go down?Also can I ask you experts on here who use PB how tight you do your caps? Like I said when I done my lid hand tight before it started at 6PSI shortly afterwards it went down to 3PSi then When I pulled a beer it went down to 2PSI so I then tighten the lid with a lid spanner. Put in other Co2 bulb it went up to 6 PSI then slowly down to 5PSI which Duxuk says this is because the beer is asboring the gas is that correct ?

You don't need PTFE. The large O ring between the cap and the PB should provide the seal, provided there is a smear of vaseline on it and the cap is not overtightened so that the ring becomes distorted.
And I explained what happened when you discharge a bulb into a PB and the pressure falls but doesn't zero out due to leaks in post 5 above.
Frankly if I were you I would put something over the pressure gauge face so that you can't read it. It seems to be a source of confusion. There really isn't any need for it in the first place. If there is enough pressure in your PB to draw off beer fine, and when there isn't you just recharge with CO2. And if it completely loses pressure quickly or never pressurises in the first place you know you have a leak and so you fix it. Simple.

 

[APINTA]

Yeh I think I agree with you all here as long as beer is coming out Thank you for all the help here. My beer has cleared now one good thing has happened.In the past all my wines and beer has been good.So when you get a hicup you wonder where you have gone wrong. My friend across the road has started his beer making got both his PB from Ballyhoo which leaked so bad you could not even get pressure inside the PB. they sent him two more made a beer kit up put it in one PB done lid up it stayed ok for a few days the lost all pressure nothing!! . the other PB they replaced is still not been used and its pressure still stands at 6PSI The only thing I can think of he has underfloor heating could that gave something to do with it ( Ballyhoo sent out both PB pressurised to prove they are OK the one he has not used has kept its pressure since well before Xmas) He really wants to succeed with this as I got him into it But he is thinking of say sod it and chucking it all it either he is doing something wrong or ballyhoo is sending faulty kegs out.At the moment this is the second beer kit he has to chuck away. He was unlucky to get to kegs in the first place that would not hold any pressure at all even ballyhoo admited that they have not seen anything like this before on there PB after they tested them back at there workshop

 

[terrym]

If your friend has a PB that holds 6 psig pressure for more than a few days it's fundamentally OK. However when you remove the cap and then replace there is no guarantee it will reseal without leaking.
There is no need to dump good beer from a leaky PB. Provided its not been exposed to the outside air too much just repackage it into bottles. Cheap fizzy water 2 litre bottles are fine in an emergency primed with 2 tsp sugar.

 

[OlsBean]

what happened then when you moved it ? tighten the cap until I could do no more Brought one of those cap spanners and tightened it as much as I could on my own put in a other co2 in and it is staying at just over 6 psi and holding that pressure. What is confusing is some say do it hand tight some say do it hand tight and just had a quick turn but still others say get it as tight as you possible can Who is right I am so now total confused as these seals are not cheap also when you make a new brew you have to add a new sealet to the cap washer or Vaseline this cap lark is getting more confusing as you go along leave it hand tight?, just tighten it a litle bit with the spanner or o the whole hog tighten is as much by hand and then tighten it as much as you can:hmm:

It dumped all its pressure, because I had a such a temperamental seal on the cap, I know this because if I tightened it too much it started to leak and also the opposite was true. I guess when I picked it up filled, the weight distorted the cap/seal.

It was my first time using a PB and has been a massive learning curve, the band was not even covering the injection hole on the S30 Valve (Brand New Barrel and Cap) so consequently the first time it failed to pressurise and dumped the first CO2 bulb I used back out. :lol: I had to do lots of Googling, Reading and YouTubing.

Just Racked some Best Bitter to PB yesterday and I am pleased to say it's holding pressure well. I took much more time in preparing the PB and Cap this time, removing the cap seal, soaking in boiling water, cable tieing the injection band etc. Hopefully the extra TLC has paid off.