Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

[Chippy_Tea]

The way i look at EV's today is you'll get over two hours driving before the battery gets to the point where you may need to start looking for charging points, after that length of time you would probably want a quick break so a convenient time to charge it, it isn't going to add that much extra time to your journey.

I edited post #239 (see above)

Lets say touring holiday in uk.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would take a current EV on a touring holiday i was talking about the odd day out where you are going to need at least one charge to get to your destination.

It takes a rapid charger approx. 40 mins to get to 80% i believe charging slows down from 80% to 100% so although a little more than the time it would take you to have a brew by the time most of us would have checked facebollocks and some other waste of time stuff on our phones the battery would be nearly charged.

 

[Justin Dean]

Time will tell

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Time will tell

It will.

BTW i am not a tree hugging diesel/petrol car hater i run an old diesel as that was the in thing to buy when i bought it i will be driving it for another year and a half or so then i will have to make a big decision to either buy the Vitara (mild) Hybrid that is currently at the top of my list or go for a second hand EV.


One of my favourite car reviewers.

Suzuki Vitara Hybrid In-Depth Review - The Spacious Family SUV You Need?

 

[Justin Dean]

Its healthy debate.. it is coming but not yet and even 2030 date is amorphous. Petrol and diesal cars will be on road beyond then. I can not see there will be a reasonable trade in deal so it will be beyond my lifetime by the time everything is ev. I am still stuck on electric sources. Gas oil and nuclear are all in the mix to produce electric no matter how I cut it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Most days not of course but occasionally more and that is the point. When you need it then what now. I agree it is just a matter of planning but it it will add tine to your journey. 2030 will be different.

How much time? Even now you can get 80% in 30-40 minutes - and if you're driving more than 250 miles you'll want a break anyway. I do those kinds of journeys fairly regularly, and IME I can do 250 miles without too much of a break, but anything much more than that and I need a decent break.

And an EV would save me time in some of the places I go on holiday, being able to charge overnight rather than having to make a special journey to a petrol station that's 30 minutes round trip away.

The range depends on the car. How long does it take to charge? Lets say touring holiday in uk. Plug in at in n unlikely. So go to supermarket car park charge there have a coffee then what....2030 technology will be better but here and now it is more challenging on time

Again we've discussed this all above - obviously a touring holiday is one of the extreme uses for a car, but even in 2016 you could do the North Coast 500 by EV, things have only got better since then. And even in 2012 or so, I saw an original Tesla Roadster on the A9 near Aviemore - with Italian plates! So if a touring holiday to Aviemore was possible from Italy back then, I think you're possibly overstating the issues.

even 2030 date is amorphous. Petrol and diesal cars will be on road beyond then. I can not see there will be a reasonable trade in deal so it will be beyond my lifetime by the time everything is ev.

Nobody's saying petrol/diesel cars won't be on the road well after 2030 - of course they will. The announcement that prompted this thread said that there would be no new ones sold after 2030, and given that the average life of a car is ~14 years, and there's a tail that survive longer than that, you're looking at 2044+ But they will become a bit like leaded petrol cars.

Gas oil and nuclear are all in the mix to produce electric no matter how I cut it.

Huh? The last major oil generator was Littlebrook D, which closed in 2015 under the Large Combustion Plant Directive, but oil had been dying for a long time before that - unless you meant coal, which produced 0.5% of UK electricity in Q2 2020. As I said above, in Q2 it was 62% from low-carbon sources - even if you allow for the distorting effect of Covid reducing demand, it would have been around 57%. Given the efficiency of modern gas plants, emissions from small petrol/diesel engines are way more than electric with the current generation mix.

 

[Justin Dean]

And without fuel tax expect other tax rises to compensate. Ev is not all gravy but hopefully more than fuel tax now

 

[Justin Dean]

How much time? Even now you can get 80% in 30-40 minutes - and if you're driving more than 250 miles you'll want a break anyway. I do those kinds of journeys fairly regularly, and IME I can do 250 miles without too much of a break, but anything much more than that and I need a decent break.

And an EV would save me time in some of the places I go on holiday, being able to charge overnight rather than having to make a special journey to a petrol station that's 30 minutes round trip away.



Again we've discussed this all above - obviously a touring holiday is one of the extreme uses for a car, but even in 2016 you could do the North Coast 500 by EV, things have only got better since then. And even in 2012 or so, I saw an original Tesla Roadster on the A9 near Aviemore - with Italian plates! So if a touring holiday to Aviemore was possible from Italy back then, I think you're possibly overstating the issues.



Huh? The last major oil generator was Littlebrook D, which closed in 2015 under the Large Combustion Plant Directive, but oil had been dying for a long time before that - unless you meant coal, which produced 0.5% of UK electricity in Q2 2020. As I said above, in Q2 it was 62% from low-carbon sources - even if you allow for the distorting effect of Covid reducing demand, it would have been around 57%. Given the efficiency of modern gas plants, emissions from small petrol/diesel engines are way more than electric with the current generation mix.

Low carbon includes nuclear?

 

[Justin Dean]

Low carbon includes nuclear?

62 low carbon equals 38% mid and high carbon. This is what mean

 

[Justin Dean]

I realise ev supporters think they are right and that is fine but i believe it is not there yet. Long time to 2030.

 

[marshbrewer]

One of the things that will have to improve is the capacity of the links into some business premises. I did a project recently and was chatting to the property project manager about the electrical feeds into the coms room and we somehow got into the subject of charging points. The customer had asked for a certain amount of charging points in the car park (can't remember the exact amount they asked for) but they had to massively scale the number back because once you added that amount of KW into the mix with all the other buildings requirements, the leccy supply basically wasn't up for it. Obviously, this can be solved by adding a better quality 'feed' to the building (sorry, don't know the correct terminology) but it would have involved alot of digging stuff up and was therefore going to be spendy as this was an inner city office.

However, in my area of business that was a common problem with fttp a few years back, and that has mostly been resolved, but it required a lot of infrastructure investment, but it can be solved. The question is, who pays?

 

[Justin Dean]

We shall see. Nothing wrong with ambition for change. Ev is not zero emmissions but it is less

 

[Northern_Brewer]

62 low carbon equals 38% mid and high carbon. This is what mean

Actually I think you're the only one worrying about emissions - they are what they are, the UK generation mix has changed massively in the last 10 years, and the fact we're pretty much not using coal or oil at all is a huge change. Plus the fact that the economics of offshore wind in particular are now better than most of the alternatives means that more of it is going to happen anyway.

As jjsh says, the real concern is that last mile infrastructure question - rapid charging is very stressful on the local grid, but slow charging overnight is far less so. The more of the latter the better - and you'll see that reflected in charging pricing structures.

 

[Justin Dean]

Not worried it is that all too often discussion on ev goes it is emission lite and it is not that simple. Still better than petrol and diesel. It will come.

 

[simon12]

Just a thought, do you think we could see hydrogen fuel cell + battery hybrid electric cars?

 

[starseeker]

Bio mass is classed as low carbon ,even though they are cutting down huge areas of pristine north American forest for the wood chips ! Totally nuts .

 

[JockyBrewer]

Just a thought, do you think we could see hydrogen fuel cell + battery hybrid electric cars?

Hydrogen fuel cells don't make a lot of sense to me. You create hydrogen with electricity, and then stick it in a car to generate that electricity again to power the car. It's an inefficient process compared to charging a battery, with the only advantage being that you can fill a car tank quicker than you can conventionally charge a battery. The other major barrier to adoption is that you're going to have to refit all the petrol stations with hydrogen fillers.

 

[Justin Dean]

Hydrogen fuel cells don't make a lot of sense to me. You create hydrogen with electricity, and then stick it in a car to generate that electricity again to power the car. It's an inefficient process compared to charging a battery, with the only advantage being that you can fill a car tank quicker than you can conventionally charge a battery. The other major barrier to adoption is that you're going to have to refit all the petrol stations with hydrogen fillers.

Comparing these two technologies is shaky ground, it is a area of lots of arguments from people who do not know what the answer is. On one side fill up and go and on the other have a cup of coffee - whats the rush. Not sure what less efficient than charging electricity is right. Where did the electricity come from in both cases has to be part of that equation. And major barrier of refitting service stations, some have it already much the same applies to battery charging infrastructure. The future is not clear

 

[simon12]

Hydrogen fuel cells don't make a lot of sense to me. You create hydrogen with electricity, and then stick it in a car to generate that electricity again to power the car. It's an inefficient process compared to charging a battery, with the only advantage being that you can fill a car tank quicker than you can conventionally charge a battery. The other major barrier to adoption is that you're going to have to refit all the petrol stations with hydrogen fillers.

Except it looks like batteries are a long way off of being and good for HGVs so petrol stations may have to stock hydrogen for them anyway. It looks likely it will cost around 3-4 times more per mile for hydrogen so it gives you a choice of wait for a charge or pay for a fast hydrogen fill. Where I think the hybrid makes sense is many people could live most of the time with a 60-80 mile battery for most of there day to day use (as long as they can charge at home) and for the 2-20 times a year they drive a very long distance they can use hydrogen, I don't know in practice what difference it would make but I think the small battery would reduce the weight so its no heavier than a 200-250 mile range battery car and would be more practical for some. Also hydrogen can be produced from methane in both polluting and non polluting ways so could make sense as a stop gap if our power grid/supply is struggling. And going into the realms of fantasy or 100 years time if we have a fusion power station making massive amounts or nearly free non-polluting energy the hydrogen inefficiency won't matter.

 

[trummy]

Just caught this thread. A few random thoughts - ultimately the government will determine the most popular transport means - by manipulating taxes, imposing mileage limits e.t.c
There has been a few posts mentioning the Leaf - A few years ago a friend of the Brother- in- Law contacted Nissan and told them their recommended recharging regime was prematurely ageing the batteries. Apparently Nissan took it on board and the new Leaf comes with modified instructions so battery life should be extended.
Battery swaps to me seem the way to go - again government only has to legislate to make the 'battery box' a standard fit but ultimately Hydrogen appears to be a more flexible option unless as Simon says Fusion becomes our energy saviour.
I was told to recoup the environmental cost of building an electric car then it had to do 50K before it breaks even.
I expect in the future people will be 'encouraged' to use other forms of transport, we have an e-bike and for a round trip of 15 miles its a pleasure to use - as long as the route taken is not too busy with four or more wheeled vehicles. Pre Covid I would by choice use the bus to visit the city - now I just do not go!
No easy solutions I guess.

 

[lupinehorror]

just saw an advert on youtube for an MG EV what could possibly go wrong...